WEBVTT 1 00:00:04.260 --> 00:00:07.460 (Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai. Go Unlimited to remove this message.) Hello, and welcome to Community and University, the 2 00:00:07.460 --> 00:00:10.120 MSU Center for Community and Economic Development podcast 3 00:00:10.120 --> 00:00:12.660 aimed at providing outreach to both community members 4 00:00:12.660 --> 00:00:14.280 and students through the state of Michigan. 5 00:00:14.780 --> 00:00:18.020 The Michigan State University US Economic Development Administration 6 00:00:18.020 --> 00:00:22.340 University Center for Regional Economic Innovation, aka REI, 7 00:00:22.340 --> 00:00:26.060 mission is to stimulate innovative economic development in 8 00:00:26.060 --> 00:00:27.900 the most distressed communities within Michigan. 9 00:00:28.340 --> 00:00:31.560 The REI University Center embraces a culture of 10 00:00:31.560 --> 00:00:35.020 regional collaboration and knowledge sharing between economic development 11 00:00:35.020 --> 00:00:36.840 professionals and committed scholars. 12 00:00:37.420 --> 00:00:40.620 The Center's model provides responsive community engagement, strategic 13 00:00:40.620 --> 00:00:43.680 partnerships, and collaborative learning to support the creation 14 00:00:43.680 --> 00:00:47.500 and identification of innovative tools, models, and practices 15 00:00:47.500 --> 00:00:50.100 to increase the number of small businesses, create 16 00:00:50.100 --> 00:00:52.980 jobs to increase skill development, improve public infrastructure, 17 00:00:53.460 --> 00:00:57.280 advance high growth entrepreneurship, and encourage global competitiveness 18 00:00:57.280 --> 00:01:00.960 to strengthen underserved communities and historically excluded citizens. 19 00:01:01.820 --> 00:01:04.239 The REI University Center's most recent award focuses 20 00:01:04.239 --> 00:01:06.220 on four key pillars of community and economic 21 00:01:06.220 --> 00:01:08.680 development that together will build up the resilience, 22 00:01:09.040 --> 00:01:11.860 sustainability, and equity within the communities in which 23 00:01:11.860 --> 00:01:12.580 it partners. 24 00:01:13.320 --> 00:01:17.140 The four pillars include resiliency planning, financial resilience, 25 00:01:17.740 --> 00:01:20.340 circular economies, and 21st century communications. 26 00:01:21.060 --> 00:01:23.020 The University Center will work with community partners 27 00:01:23.020 --> 00:01:25.420 to address these themes in Michigan Economic Development 28 00:01:25.420 --> 00:01:29.000 Corporation's identified redevelopment-ready communities, containing 29 00:01:29.000 --> 00:01:34.180 opportunity zone, census tracts, and or large concentrations 30 00:01:34.180 --> 00:01:36.660 of Alice populations, or those who are asset 31 00:01:36.660 --> 00:01:38.540 -limited, income-constrained, employed. 32 00:01:39.440 --> 00:01:41.140 My name is Matthew Emery, and I'm one 33 00:01:41.140 --> 00:01:42.660 of the hosts for community and university. 34 00:01:43.060 --> 00:01:45.020 Today, we will be spotlighting one of our 35 00:01:45.020 --> 00:01:48.380 2022 REI Center's student-led, faculty-guided project 36 00:01:48.380 --> 00:01:51.120 authors, Dr. Stephen Gasteyer, who is working on 37 00:01:51.120 --> 00:01:54.560 a project entitled Creating Circular Economic Opportunities Through 38 00:01:54.560 --> 00:01:55.780 Localizing the Food Property. 39 00:01:56.550 --> 00:01:58.240 The focus of this project is how food 40 00:01:58.240 --> 00:02:01.480 properties and local community organizations can help create 41 00:02:01.480 --> 00:02:03.680 a circular food economy that will not only 42 00:02:03.680 --> 00:02:06.540 improve local food access and security, but also 43 00:02:06.540 --> 00:02:08.759 help local food producers improve their own future 44 00:02:08.759 --> 00:02:09.300 prospects. 45 00:02:10.060 --> 00:02:12.700 Student-led, faculty-guided projects are researched and 46 00:02:12.700 --> 00:02:14.800 written by student teams at Michigan universities and 47 00:02:14.800 --> 00:02:17.860 colleges and supervised by said university or college 48 00:02:17.860 --> 00:02:18.220 faculty. 49 00:02:18.220 --> 00:02:21.340 The goal of this project is to provide 50 00:02:21.340 --> 00:02:24.000 assistance to Michigan communities in completing local and 51 00:02:24.000 --> 00:02:25.740 regional economic development initiatives. 52 00:02:26.420 --> 00:02:28.820 Dr. Gasteyer, can you please introduce yourself, including 53 00:02:28.820 --> 00:02:31.160 your educational and professional background for our listeners? 54 00:02:32.060 --> 00:02:32.560 Well, thank you. 55 00:02:32.740 --> 00:02:33.680 Thank you so much, Matthew. 56 00:02:34.380 --> 00:02:37.500 I am... 57 00:02:38.980 --> 00:02:40.340 So, I'm Stephen Gasteyer. 58 00:02:42.160 --> 00:02:43.800 I'm a... 59 00:02:43.800 --> 00:02:46.680 I am an associate professor of sociology at 60 00:02:46.680 --> 00:02:47.780 Michigan State University. 61 00:02:49.160 --> 00:02:51.760 I have... 62 00:02:51.760 --> 00:02:56.340 I started working on community development in the 63 00:02:56.340 --> 00:02:58.220 1990s, really. 64 00:02:59.000 --> 00:03:01.700 And in some ways started working on community 65 00:03:01.700 --> 00:03:02.660 development before that. 66 00:03:02.820 --> 00:03:04.880 I actually have an international studies degree from 67 00:03:04.880 --> 00:03:06.660 a place called Earlham College, which is in 68 00:03:06.660 --> 00:03:09.220 Richmond, Indiana, where I did... 69 00:03:09.220 --> 00:03:13.660 where about halfway through my international studies degree 70 00:03:13.660 --> 00:03:15.640 I started taking development classes. 71 00:03:15.820 --> 00:03:17.640 I went from that into the Peace Corps, 72 00:03:18.060 --> 00:03:20.340 where I was theoretically doing agriculture, but so 73 00:03:20.340 --> 00:03:23.940 much of agriculture in the context of Mali 74 00:03:23.940 --> 00:03:29.300 was about organizing the community around alternatives and 75 00:03:29.300 --> 00:03:36.340 around adaptation, in fact, to desertification, to droughts, 76 00:03:36.460 --> 00:03:38.880 to how to adapt to all of those 77 00:03:38.880 --> 00:03:39.180 things. 78 00:03:39.940 --> 00:03:44.080 And then came back and worked for a 79 00:03:44.080 --> 00:03:47.140 little bit on alternative agriculture in the United 80 00:03:47.140 --> 00:03:50.760 States, and then went to Palestine and spent 81 00:03:50.760 --> 00:03:54.220 time in the West Bank, thinking about, again, 82 00:03:55.040 --> 00:03:58.340 agriculture, environment, but really about community in the 83 00:03:58.340 --> 00:04:01.560 context of ongoing conflict, of course, but also 84 00:04:01.560 --> 00:04:06.400 adapting to changes in climate, destruction of environment, 85 00:04:07.360 --> 00:04:11.540 and adapting to the kinds of shocks that 86 00:04:11.540 --> 00:04:14.200 communities get all the time. 87 00:04:14.800 --> 00:04:16.720 About a third of the way through that, 88 00:04:17.279 --> 00:04:19.360 and this does get to my educational background, 89 00:04:20.600 --> 00:04:24.440 I started thinking about, well, the questions I 90 00:04:24.440 --> 00:04:26.420 need to ask are actually the social questions, 91 00:04:26.740 --> 00:04:29.940 and that led me to applying to do 92 00:04:29.940 --> 00:04:34.740 a PhD that was really focused on how 93 00:04:34.740 --> 00:04:39.820 do we understand environment, agriculture, large system change 94 00:04:39.820 --> 00:04:42.400 from the context of what people can do 95 00:04:42.400 --> 00:04:43.240 at the community level. 96 00:04:43.240 --> 00:04:46.080 So I ended up getting a PhD from 97 00:04:46.080 --> 00:04:53.120 Iowa State University in rural sociology. 98 00:04:54.460 --> 00:05:00.080 And in that degree was really thinking about 99 00:05:00.080 --> 00:05:04.820 this nexus between development, environment, and community, and 100 00:05:04.820 --> 00:05:06.200 how do those come together. 101 00:05:06.200 --> 00:05:10.140 And how can we use the available assets 102 00:05:10.140 --> 00:05:13.020 at the community level to actually create the 103 00:05:13.020 --> 00:05:20.880 kinds of vibrant communities with opportunities that have 104 00:05:20.880 --> 00:05:22.120 ecological integrity. 105 00:05:25.320 --> 00:05:30.660 And what is the combination of 106 00:05:30.660 --> 00:05:40.560 resources within the community and resources 107 00:05:40.560 --> 00:05:44.000 from outside the community that can help foster 108 00:05:44.000 --> 00:05:44.980 those kinds of change. 109 00:05:44.980 --> 00:05:47.060 In effect, what I was thinking about was 110 00:05:47.060 --> 00:05:49.880 how do we empower the community in the 111 00:05:49.880 --> 00:05:54.260 context of constant shocks to respond in a 112 00:05:54.260 --> 00:05:56.280 way that actually leads to a better life. 113 00:05:57.440 --> 00:05:57.540 Interesting. 114 00:05:57.920 --> 00:05:59.880 So you're also a professor now, correct? 115 00:06:00.260 --> 00:06:00.440 Indeed. 116 00:06:00.460 --> 00:06:01.940 I know that because I had you last 117 00:06:01.940 --> 00:06:02.340 semester. 118 00:06:02.740 --> 00:06:02.860 Indeed. 119 00:06:02.860 --> 00:06:06.420 So, how does your previous background and being 120 00:06:06.420 --> 00:06:08.540 a now professor, how did you get involved 121 00:06:08.540 --> 00:06:10.380 in researching food co-op groups and the 122 00:06:10.380 --> 00:06:13.480 relationship or lack of relationship between them and 123 00:06:13.480 --> 00:06:15.800 the community organizations that you've worked with in 124 00:06:15.800 --> 00:06:16.260 the past? 125 00:06:16.900 --> 00:06:18.540 So, for those of us who are thinking 126 00:06:18.540 --> 00:06:22.920 about agriculture and the food system and the 127 00:06:22.920 --> 00:06:26.840 environment, and also thinking about community development, food 128 00:06:26.840 --> 00:06:28.180 co-ops come up a lot. 129 00:06:28.180 --> 00:06:30.960 And they come up a lot because they 130 00:06:30.960 --> 00:06:33.440 are one of the mechanisms through which we 131 00:06:33.440 --> 00:06:39.420 can think about an exchange of resources that's 132 00:06:39.420 --> 00:06:40.180 not competitive. 133 00:06:40.180 --> 00:06:42.480 So, one of the problems with the conventional 134 00:06:42.480 --> 00:06:51.860 store, grocery, whatever, is the whole model 135 00:06:51.860 --> 00:06:54.020 is individuated. 136 00:06:54.020 --> 00:06:57.220 So, the whole model is based on the 137 00:06:57.220 --> 00:06:59.700 notion that each of us individually are looking 138 00:06:59.700 --> 00:07:04.040 to maximize our own benefit, which ultimately means, 139 00:07:04.420 --> 00:07:08.420 A, I want to get that cucumber more 140 00:07:08.420 --> 00:07:09.800 cheaply than the other people. 141 00:07:10.380 --> 00:07:11.820 So, if I can buy a whole bunch 142 00:07:11.820 --> 00:07:17.900 of them and, in effect, maximize my own 143 00:07:17.900 --> 00:07:19.720 benefit, I don't care what happens to all 144 00:07:19.720 --> 00:07:21.080 the other people in the store. 145 00:07:23.580 --> 00:07:26.860 Additionally, and so the first notion of the 146 00:07:26.860 --> 00:07:29.900 co-op, Becca, was that consumer co-ops 147 00:07:29.900 --> 00:07:33.780 came together, understanding that actually we can move 148 00:07:33.780 --> 00:07:37.080 beyond a competitive form of buying the best 149 00:07:37.080 --> 00:07:41.060 stuff for each individual to a collective. 150 00:07:41.420 --> 00:07:43.500 And that makes the whole better. 151 00:07:44.680 --> 00:07:44.860 Right. 152 00:07:45.600 --> 00:07:48.560 In addition, in the traditional food co-ops, 153 00:07:49.420 --> 00:07:52.780 there was a notion of consumer co-ops, 154 00:07:52.840 --> 00:07:54.620 there was a notion of democracy. 155 00:07:55.180 --> 00:07:57.340 We came together, it wasn't just that we 156 00:07:57.340 --> 00:07:59.460 walked into the store and whatever was there 157 00:07:59.460 --> 00:08:01.420 we tried to get the best of it. 158 00:08:01.420 --> 00:08:04.560 We actually talked about how do we source 159 00:08:04.560 --> 00:08:06.420 from the right places and it allowed us 160 00:08:06.420 --> 00:08:11.320 to infuse value, right, the values of the 161 00:08:11.320 --> 00:08:14.120 collective into the decision making process about what 162 00:08:14.120 --> 00:08:14.760 should be there. 163 00:08:15.520 --> 00:08:17.200 So this is, for those of us thinking 164 00:08:17.200 --> 00:08:19.560 about community and how do we build community 165 00:08:19.560 --> 00:08:22.380 as part of the economic system, this was 166 00:08:22.380 --> 00:08:23.080 very alluring. 167 00:08:23.840 --> 00:08:28.780 It also so happens that producers have long 168 00:08:28.780 --> 00:08:31.179 had co-ops in the agricultural sector as 169 00:08:31.179 --> 00:08:31.539 well. 170 00:08:31.539 --> 00:08:33.200 And it's the same notion. 171 00:08:33.559 --> 00:08:36.760 So rather than each of us individually needing 172 00:08:36.760 --> 00:08:38.799 to get all of the things that need 173 00:08:38.799 --> 00:08:43.780 to go into growing stuff, you have producers 174 00:08:43.780 --> 00:08:47.680 coming together and pooling resources and thinking about, 175 00:08:47.760 --> 00:08:50.040 again, that full suite of things that you 176 00:08:50.040 --> 00:08:53.640 would want, not just services, but the full 177 00:08:53.640 --> 00:08:55.820 suite of things that you would want to 178 00:08:55.820 --> 00:08:57.880 have to produce. 179 00:08:58.500 --> 00:09:03.820 And again, because producer co-ops are organized 180 00:09:03.820 --> 00:09:08.780 around collective decision making, the production side becomes 181 00:09:08.780 --> 00:09:12.740 less individuated, less about individual farms and more 182 00:09:12.740 --> 00:09:14.280 about thinking about the whole community. 183 00:09:16.020 --> 00:09:21.020 What we have, so what we are interested 184 00:09:21.020 --> 00:09:22.880 in doing in this co-op in the 185 00:09:22.880 --> 00:09:28.660 east side of Lansing is, and it is 186 00:09:28.660 --> 00:09:31.920 one step further, right? 187 00:09:32.020 --> 00:09:35.780 So we're looking at the east side of 188 00:09:35.780 --> 00:09:40.260 Lansing has recently, has the Allen Neighborhood Center. 189 00:09:40.260 --> 00:09:43.800 This is a nonprofit, very active nonprofit, does 190 00:09:43.800 --> 00:09:46.180 a full range of things on the east 191 00:09:46.180 --> 00:09:46.800 side of Lansing. 192 00:09:47.100 --> 00:09:50.820 It's respected throughout mid-Michigan as one of 193 00:09:50.820 --> 00:09:53.920 the most active neighborhood associations. 194 00:09:55.600 --> 00:09:59.600 They recently expanded into something called Allen Place, 195 00:09:59.680 --> 00:10:04.900 which is going to have a range of 196 00:10:04.900 --> 00:10:07.060 income housing, it's going to have a health 197 00:10:07.060 --> 00:10:11.340 center, and they've invited the East Lansing Food 198 00:10:11.340 --> 00:10:16.100 Co-op to open a space on the 199 00:10:16.100 --> 00:10:18.140 ground floor of this new development. 200 00:10:19.100 --> 00:10:24.660 This gives us the, the East Lansing Food 201 00:10:24.660 --> 00:10:27.640 Co-op independently had made the decision several 202 00:10:27.640 --> 00:10:29.620 years ago that one of the things they 203 00:10:29.620 --> 00:10:32.100 could do that would give them a niche 204 00:10:32.920 --> 00:10:37.420 was to develop a system, to develop a 205 00:10:37.420 --> 00:10:41.600 produce chain that really invited local growers and 206 00:10:41.600 --> 00:10:43.640 provided a space for local growers. 207 00:10:44.540 --> 00:10:47.160 And so we, we might be seeing the, 208 00:10:47.320 --> 00:10:50.620 the opening of a cooperative that is not 209 00:10:50.620 --> 00:10:53.540 just about how to consumers come together and 210 00:10:53.540 --> 00:10:57.880 create community among consumers, and not just how 211 00:10:57.880 --> 00:11:01.260 to producers come together and create a community 212 00:11:01.260 --> 00:11:03.880 among producers, but combines the two. 213 00:11:04.620 --> 00:11:09.200 So that, in fact, consumption and production get 214 00:11:09.200 --> 00:11:11.640 integrated in a way that we take all 215 00:11:11.640 --> 00:11:13.460 of the values that are important to all 216 00:11:13.460 --> 00:11:15.920 of those parties, and then infuse that with 217 00:11:15.920 --> 00:11:17.420 the broader value of how do we build 218 00:11:17.420 --> 00:11:20.660 the community, and do it in a way 219 00:11:20.660 --> 00:11:26.540 that there are democratic systems embedded in the 220 00:11:26.540 --> 00:11:28.660 system so that there's actually a discussion about 221 00:11:28.660 --> 00:11:29.140 these things. 222 00:11:29.820 --> 00:11:29.960 Right. 223 00:11:30.620 --> 00:11:32.260 There's one of the beauties of a co 224 00:11:32.260 --> 00:11:35.160 -op from somebody who's thinking about participatory community 225 00:11:35.160 --> 00:11:38.080 development, is that there are part of what 226 00:11:38.080 --> 00:11:39.300 makes a co-op a co-op is 227 00:11:39.300 --> 00:11:41.800 that everyone, it's not just that I own 228 00:11:41.800 --> 00:11:45.200 the establishment and you buy, it's that we 229 00:11:45.200 --> 00:11:46.520 all own the establishment. 230 00:11:47.540 --> 00:11:50.400 And so, so there are then mechanisms through 231 00:11:50.400 --> 00:11:53.140 which all of us get to be part 232 00:11:53.140 --> 00:11:54.920 of the decision making about what is that 233 00:11:54.920 --> 00:11:58.180 establishment doing and how is it furthering the 234 00:11:58.180 --> 00:11:58.840 broader good. 235 00:11:59.420 --> 00:12:02.140 And if we can move to adding producers 236 00:12:02.140 --> 00:12:03.520 to that mix. 237 00:12:04.220 --> 00:12:07.060 Then we've got something that's really powerful in 238 00:12:07.060 --> 00:12:09.680 terms of changing the way that we do 239 00:12:09.680 --> 00:12:13.960 economic accumulation. 240 00:12:14.580 --> 00:12:15.080 For sure. 241 00:12:15.420 --> 00:12:15.600 Yeah. 242 00:12:15.820 --> 00:12:17.080 So thank you for that. 243 00:12:17.380 --> 00:12:19.000 So you mentioned that this co-op is 244 00:12:19.000 --> 00:12:20.100 on the east side of Lansing. 245 00:12:20.860 --> 00:12:23.440 For your project, how did you, did you 246 00:12:23.440 --> 00:12:24.920 pick the east side of Lansing because those 247 00:12:24.920 --> 00:12:27.040 systems are already in place or because it's 248 00:12:27.040 --> 00:12:30.160 close to home or what made that community 249 00:12:30.160 --> 00:12:32.260 so attractive to you? 250 00:12:32.260 --> 00:12:36.380 So, the east side of Lansing is attractive 251 00:12:36.380 --> 00:12:37.180 for a number of reasons. 252 00:12:37.360 --> 00:12:38.480 Yes, it is close to home. 253 00:12:39.200 --> 00:12:40.180 Always a plus. 254 00:12:40.420 --> 00:12:41.100 Always a plus. 255 00:12:41.400 --> 00:12:44.260 But, but more importantly, the east side of 256 00:12:44.260 --> 00:12:46.620 Lansing does have a lot of the pieces 257 00:12:46.620 --> 00:12:49.380 in place, right, they have east Lansing, the 258 00:12:49.380 --> 00:12:52.200 Allen Neighborhood Center has invited the co-op 259 00:12:52.200 --> 00:12:54.940 to open, and it's in the process of 260 00:12:54.940 --> 00:12:55.360 opening. 261 00:12:55.840 --> 00:12:57.600 Right, so those conversations are going on. 262 00:12:58.260 --> 00:13:02.380 In addition, the Allen Neighborhood Center is on 263 00:13:02.380 --> 00:13:05.160 the east side, and is, is one of 264 00:13:05.160 --> 00:13:11.740 the most impressive neighborhood associations in this region, 265 00:13:11.980 --> 00:13:14.220 right, so active on a number of different 266 00:13:14.220 --> 00:13:19.600 fronts, specifically on the local food front. 267 00:13:20.430 --> 00:13:23.160 So what the Allen Neighborhood Center has been 268 00:13:23.160 --> 00:13:28.400 facilitating on the east side are activities in 269 00:13:28.400 --> 00:13:31.360 all sides of the food production and consumption 270 00:13:31.360 --> 00:13:35.520 area so they have a food pantry that's 271 00:13:35.520 --> 00:13:44.180 integrated with the food production, you have easily 272 00:13:44.180 --> 00:13:46.800 a dozen micro farms in the area. 273 00:13:47.120 --> 00:13:49.880 So people are producing in the area. 274 00:13:50.670 --> 00:13:55.940 And you have the hunter greenhouse, where this, 275 00:13:56.200 --> 00:13:58.780 the Allen Neighborhood itself is not only growing 276 00:13:58.780 --> 00:14:02.100 food but is also doing programming, and that 277 00:14:02.100 --> 00:14:08.520 programming involves everything but every everything from inviting 278 00:14:08.520 --> 00:14:12.700 interns said class you were in their students 279 00:14:12.700 --> 00:14:17.940 who are interns to actually doing workshops with 280 00:14:17.940 --> 00:14:19.620 young people and teaching them. 281 00:14:19.980 --> 00:14:21.440 Yes, how to grow stuff in the greenhouse, 282 00:14:21.820 --> 00:14:23.900 but also for instance how do I, how 283 00:14:23.900 --> 00:14:26.580 to spot fruit trees, and in an area 284 00:14:26.580 --> 00:14:29.940 in our legacy cities we actually have fruit 285 00:14:29.940 --> 00:14:32.960 trees around that aren't actually being harvested their 286 00:14:32.960 --> 00:14:36.260 legacies of when people lived in the area 287 00:14:36.260 --> 00:14:39.200 who had fruit trees so spotting those and 288 00:14:39.200 --> 00:14:43.520 foraging for for food that has isn't actually 289 00:14:43.520 --> 00:14:44.620 harvested right now. 290 00:14:44.620 --> 00:14:46.100 So, it's. 291 00:14:47.300 --> 00:14:50.060 And then other kinds of workshops that are, 292 00:14:50.100 --> 00:14:52.760 you know, talking about different kinds of seeds 293 00:14:52.760 --> 00:14:54.200 and how do you plant seeds. 294 00:14:54.740 --> 00:14:56.420 And then they have things like garden in 295 00:14:56.420 --> 00:14:58.980 a box which is actually taking all the 296 00:14:58.980 --> 00:15:01.320 stuff to a to people in the neighborhood 297 00:15:01.320 --> 00:15:03.480 in a box and saying here's what you 298 00:15:03.480 --> 00:15:05.360 need to do to plant a garden in 299 00:15:05.360 --> 00:15:05.800 your backyard. 300 00:15:06.180 --> 00:15:06.280 Wow. 301 00:15:06.320 --> 00:15:09.840 So it's these multiple aspects of building community 302 00:15:09.840 --> 00:15:15.300 through thinking about food thinking about development of 303 00:15:15.300 --> 00:15:18.320 the soil and the plants and the biodiversity 304 00:15:18.320 --> 00:15:20.660 and respecting what's already there. 305 00:15:21.200 --> 00:15:24.440 That makes this a really exciting place to 306 00:15:24.440 --> 00:15:25.820 try to do this kind of a project. 307 00:15:27.740 --> 00:15:29.360 Yeah, very interesting. 308 00:15:29.540 --> 00:15:29.900 Thank you. 309 00:15:30.120 --> 00:15:31.300 I didn't know that much about that you 310 00:15:31.300 --> 00:15:32.540 said, and we're right there. 311 00:15:32.820 --> 00:15:35.860 So, um, so you've talked a lot about 312 00:15:35.860 --> 00:15:38.260 your project and a little bit about the 313 00:15:38.260 --> 00:15:39.720 goals and aims for the project. 314 00:15:40.280 --> 00:15:42.780 But as the project kind of wraps up 315 00:15:42.780 --> 00:15:44.980 what do you hope to accomplish what you 316 00:15:44.980 --> 00:15:46.640 hope to take away from the project, on 317 00:15:46.640 --> 00:15:47.640 top of what you already listed. 318 00:15:47.640 --> 00:15:51.560 Well, so the thing that I'm actually interested 319 00:15:51.560 --> 00:15:54.660 in is, is how might we be able 320 00:15:54.660 --> 00:15:57.200 to better account for the various assets that 321 00:15:57.200 --> 00:15:59.860 are built through the relationships that are created. 322 00:16:00.460 --> 00:16:00.600 Right. 323 00:16:00.940 --> 00:16:03.520 So I use something called the community capitals 324 00:16:03.520 --> 00:16:11.800 framework, which is, it's, it's a wonky term 325 00:16:11.800 --> 00:16:14.040 is heuristic device right it's a way of 326 00:16:14.040 --> 00:16:16.420 looking at the world and trying to understand 327 00:16:16.420 --> 00:16:17.380 what's going on. 328 00:16:17.380 --> 00:16:18.840 Right, a conceptual framework. 329 00:16:20.240 --> 00:16:23.600 And what the community capitals framework says is 330 00:16:23.600 --> 00:16:27.380 that community development involves, it has to involve 331 00:16:27.380 --> 00:16:32.780 the mobilization and investment in in different resources 332 00:16:32.780 --> 00:16:33.600 in the community. 333 00:16:34.470 --> 00:16:38.680 And so good projects, identify where there are 334 00:16:38.680 --> 00:16:41.380 existing assets and pull them and pulls them 335 00:16:41.380 --> 00:16:44.280 into the product, it pulls them into meeting 336 00:16:44.280 --> 00:16:49.580 additional goals, but also identifies where there may 337 00:16:49.580 --> 00:16:52.500 be deficits of assets and figures out how, 338 00:16:52.640 --> 00:16:53.900 where do we put those investments. 339 00:16:54.240 --> 00:16:57.140 How do we invest to increase those right. 340 00:16:58.050 --> 00:17:02.140 And, and so return on investment of any 341 00:17:02.140 --> 00:17:03.300 kind of an initiative. 342 00:17:04.660 --> 00:17:08.940 Should, yes, you're looking for financial, but hopefully 343 00:17:08.940 --> 00:17:10.780 you're not just looking for a one off. 344 00:17:10.780 --> 00:17:13.839 So it's important that you think about what, 345 00:17:14.660 --> 00:17:18.359 how does, how do different kinds of resources 346 00:17:18.359 --> 00:17:21.680 circulate through a given community and how do 347 00:17:21.680 --> 00:17:26.319 they contribute to, to creating a more vibrant 348 00:17:26.319 --> 00:17:30.980 community, creating a community where there's economic growth 349 00:17:31.760 --> 00:17:34.900 and, and a community where there is ecological 350 00:17:34.900 --> 00:17:38.880 integrity, so you're building, building all of those 351 00:17:38.880 --> 00:17:40.020 things at the same time. 352 00:17:40.180 --> 00:17:41.640 And so what I'm hoping I'm going to 353 00:17:41.640 --> 00:17:43.460 understand at the end is what are the 354 00:17:43.460 --> 00:17:45.740 kinds of assets that we're looking at developing. 355 00:17:46.740 --> 00:17:49.360 As we put in place, both the means 356 00:17:49.360 --> 00:17:52.220 of production the means of consumption and put 357 00:17:52.220 --> 00:17:54.560 those into dialogue in a community like the 358 00:17:54.560 --> 00:17:55.540 Allen neighborhood center. 359 00:17:56.740 --> 00:17:58.680 So, right, and. 360 00:17:59.420 --> 00:18:01.780 And so if we have them that conceptual 361 00:18:01.780 --> 00:18:04.360 model then we're well placed over the next 362 00:18:04.360 --> 00:18:07.060 five years as the co op gets open 363 00:18:07.060 --> 00:18:12.100 and functioning as the center transitions to have 364 00:18:12.100 --> 00:18:14.080 a better system of measurement of what do 365 00:18:14.080 --> 00:18:16.040 we get out of any given initiative in 366 00:18:16.040 --> 00:18:16.620 this place. 367 00:18:17.040 --> 00:18:18.300 How do we build. 368 00:18:19.020 --> 00:18:21.340 How do we understand what is a local 369 00:18:21.340 --> 00:18:22.460 circular economy. 370 00:18:23.580 --> 00:18:26.840 What's circulating who benefits, how do they benefit. 371 00:18:27.620 --> 00:18:30.720 How does it contribute to interaction among people. 372 00:18:31.880 --> 00:18:35.500 How does it contribute to wealth among individuals, 373 00:18:35.780 --> 00:18:38.640 how does it contribute to community wealth, maybe 374 00:18:38.640 --> 00:18:40.460 in the form of new playgrounds are in 375 00:18:40.460 --> 00:18:41.140 the form of right. 376 00:18:42.000 --> 00:18:44.620 So, so thinking about all those things. 377 00:18:45.640 --> 00:18:47.540 But the first thing you have to do 378 00:18:47.540 --> 00:18:49.740 is really refine that conceptual model so you 379 00:18:49.740 --> 00:18:51.300 know what you're looking at know what you 380 00:18:51.300 --> 00:18:52.920 would be measuring so that's what I'm hoping 381 00:18:52.920 --> 00:18:54.660 I'm going to get by the end of 382 00:18:54.660 --> 00:18:56.140 the day that. 383 00:18:57.000 --> 00:18:59.040 So that's on the east side. 384 00:19:00.140 --> 00:19:02.420 As a scholar of course I'm interested in 385 00:19:02.420 --> 00:19:04.280 how might this apply globally. 386 00:19:04.280 --> 00:19:04.980 Right. 387 00:19:05.580 --> 00:19:07.860 And the thing about the side is it 388 00:19:07.860 --> 00:19:11.280 looks like if you look at the statistics, 389 00:19:11.560 --> 00:19:13.200 right, the demographics. 390 00:19:14.020 --> 00:19:16.400 It looks like a lot of neighborhoods in 391 00:19:16.400 --> 00:19:19.740 what unkindly sometimes gets called the rust belt. 392 00:19:20.200 --> 00:19:23.280 Right, where it used to be a lot 393 00:19:23.280 --> 00:19:23.620 bigger. 394 00:19:25.580 --> 00:19:29.160 It's used to have a lot more wealthy 395 00:19:29.160 --> 00:19:29.640 people. 396 00:19:29.640 --> 00:19:32.520 It's now got a population that's not so 397 00:19:32.520 --> 00:19:32.860 wealthy. 398 00:19:35.220 --> 00:19:38.680 It's the used to have grocery stores in 399 00:19:38.680 --> 00:19:39.980 the area and you don't anymore. 400 00:19:40.300 --> 00:19:40.400 Right. 401 00:19:40.900 --> 00:19:43.740 Those are, that's true of our legacy cities 402 00:19:43.740 --> 00:19:44.900 across this region. 403 00:19:45.060 --> 00:19:51.080 And I think as industries, as, as the 404 00:19:51.080 --> 00:19:53.340 global economy continues to shift we're going to 405 00:19:53.340 --> 00:19:55.080 see them emerging in other places. 406 00:19:56.800 --> 00:19:58.860 Part of what I'm hoping is this becomes 407 00:19:58.860 --> 00:20:01.060 one of a suite of models that can 408 00:20:01.060 --> 00:20:02.400 be used to think about how do you 409 00:20:02.400 --> 00:20:04.560 revitalize those areas, and how do you do 410 00:20:04.560 --> 00:20:04.760 it. 411 00:20:05.620 --> 00:20:06.940 One of the things that they've so far 412 00:20:06.940 --> 00:20:11.620 done beautifully in the east side is made 413 00:20:11.620 --> 00:20:13.780 the place, a little more vibrant a little 414 00:20:13.780 --> 00:20:19.600 more exciting without wholesale expelling those who are 415 00:20:19.600 --> 00:20:20.500 less fortunate. 416 00:20:21.500 --> 00:20:24.480 Can, is that is there a possibility to 417 00:20:24.480 --> 00:20:27.080 do that right the old model of improving 418 00:20:27.080 --> 00:20:31.380 communities that had had sort of gotten the 419 00:20:31.380 --> 00:20:32.360 short shrift. 420 00:20:33.420 --> 00:20:37.740 During the last economic transition was effectively a 421 00:20:37.740 --> 00:20:38.940 gentrification process. 422 00:20:40.580 --> 00:20:44.180 So, and we all understand that that that 423 00:20:44.180 --> 00:20:47.880 doesn't actually unless gentrification means everyone in that 424 00:20:47.880 --> 00:20:50.800 neighborhood becomes more wealthy, but usually what that 425 00:20:50.800 --> 00:20:52.800 means is everyone in that neighborhood gets kicked 426 00:20:52.800 --> 00:20:53.100 out. 427 00:20:53.700 --> 00:20:57.980 And then you have fewer wealthy people in 428 00:20:57.980 --> 00:21:00.300 the same number of buildings that have become 429 00:21:00.300 --> 00:21:02.060 fancier and whatever right. 430 00:21:03.220 --> 00:21:05.800 Ideally, we'd be able to improve all of 431 00:21:05.800 --> 00:21:08.160 society so part of what I'm interested in 432 00:21:08.160 --> 00:21:10.880 is, is the kind of community development model 433 00:21:10.880 --> 00:21:17.300 that is more inclusive more participatory develops internal. 434 00:21:18.700 --> 00:21:19.920 Thank you for that. 435 00:21:20.680 --> 00:21:22.740 You actually answered my next question I was 436 00:21:22.740 --> 00:21:25.540 going to ask about if you could implement 437 00:21:25.540 --> 00:21:27.460 your work with this project into other communities 438 00:21:27.460 --> 00:21:28.980 which you said, which would be one of 439 00:21:28.980 --> 00:21:30.780 the goals so that's very good news. 440 00:21:31.300 --> 00:21:34.440 So, talking about the circular food economies that 441 00:21:34.440 --> 00:21:37.080 this project is kind of based around what 442 00:21:37.080 --> 00:21:39.800 are the key changes or benefits brought to 443 00:21:39.800 --> 00:21:43.000 communities that adopt these local food economies, compared 444 00:21:43.000 --> 00:21:44.380 to ones that do not. 445 00:21:44.380 --> 00:21:49.980 Well, we, we don't know because the project 446 00:21:49.980 --> 00:21:51.260 has just started. 447 00:21:51.800 --> 00:21:54.620 What do you anticipate, but I would say 448 00:21:54.620 --> 00:21:58.700 this though I think what we are understanding 449 00:21:58.700 --> 00:22:06.360 is that is that, or that we understand 450 00:22:06.360 --> 00:22:07.820 this, what we hope. 451 00:22:08.640 --> 00:22:12.260 And this is from the emergence of of 452 00:22:12.260 --> 00:22:19.600 urban farms and regional, the regional food system 453 00:22:19.600 --> 00:22:24.540 work is that there's, there's, if you will, 454 00:22:24.720 --> 00:22:29.820 negative benefits, which is to say, the, you, 455 00:22:30.140 --> 00:22:33.820 you move from a system where most of 456 00:22:33.820 --> 00:22:35.800 the food comes from far away eats up 457 00:22:35.800 --> 00:22:38.980 lots of lots of food miles and greenhouse 458 00:22:38.980 --> 00:22:42.580 gas emissions as it gets transported from California, 459 00:22:44.900 --> 00:22:47.340 probably gets produced on a farm that's very 460 00:22:47.340 --> 00:22:49.200 that's large enough that they're doing it the 461 00:22:49.200 --> 00:22:50.940 most efficient way which may not be the 462 00:22:50.940 --> 00:22:52.520 most environmentally sound way. 463 00:22:53.280 --> 00:22:56.020 Right, so there's probably benefits just in having 464 00:22:56.020 --> 00:22:59.620 the supply chain be closer, just because of 465 00:22:59.620 --> 00:23:00.820 the amount of resources. 466 00:23:01.820 --> 00:23:07.300 And, and there may be environmental benefits in 467 00:23:07.300 --> 00:23:10.040 terms of being able to cycle nutrients more 468 00:23:10.040 --> 00:23:10.380 quickly. 469 00:23:10.820 --> 00:23:13.700 So, so think I was just spelling this 470 00:23:13.700 --> 00:23:16.240 out in a memo this morning to somebody. 471 00:23:18.420 --> 00:23:23.660 Think about the feasibility of taking the food 472 00:23:23.660 --> 00:23:27.200 that you ate the taking all the stuff 473 00:23:27.200 --> 00:23:29.220 that you didn't need, putting it into a 474 00:23:29.220 --> 00:23:32.760 compost bin that you take back to, to 475 00:23:32.760 --> 00:23:35.240 the farm that's less than a mile away. 476 00:23:35.240 --> 00:23:38.660 And compare that to the way that we 477 00:23:38.660 --> 00:23:41.840 had structured things your lettuce came from California 478 00:23:41.840 --> 00:23:45.440 your meat came from Iowa your right and 479 00:23:45.440 --> 00:23:46.960 it all got shipped in here. 480 00:23:47.640 --> 00:23:49.000 At the end of the day, it's not 481 00:23:49.000 --> 00:23:50.220 very feasible to ship it back. 482 00:23:50.420 --> 00:23:52.740 Yeah, so we don't have anything circular about 483 00:23:52.740 --> 00:23:56.420 that way of, of production right marks. 484 00:23:57.300 --> 00:24:03.660 Carl Marx, the, the economist identified identified this 485 00:24:03.660 --> 00:24:06.720 problem in the 1800s with industrializing England and 486 00:24:06.720 --> 00:24:09.820 and john Bellamy Foster identified that called it 487 00:24:09.820 --> 00:24:12.160 the metabolic rift, right. 488 00:24:12.700 --> 00:24:16.380 The idea that instead of circulating nutrients. 489 00:24:16.380 --> 00:24:19.300 We dump our nutrients into the weights waste 490 00:24:19.300 --> 00:24:21.960 stream and then we have depleting soils on 491 00:24:21.960 --> 00:24:22.760 the outskirts. 492 00:24:23.740 --> 00:24:23.880 Right. 493 00:24:24.160 --> 00:24:26.580 So maybe that solves part of that problem 494 00:24:26.580 --> 00:24:28.820 if we're thinking about how do we connect. 495 00:24:29.820 --> 00:24:32.300 How do we shorten supply chains. 496 00:24:33.580 --> 00:24:35.200 Maybe we have a better chance of actually 497 00:24:35.200 --> 00:24:37.400 cycling nutrients through those supply chains. 498 00:24:38.140 --> 00:24:39.180 So that's one thing. 499 00:24:39.840 --> 00:24:43.400 But then the other thing is really within 500 00:24:43.400 --> 00:24:49.000 community is one of the, what might be 501 00:24:49.000 --> 00:24:50.380 the benefit of taking. 502 00:24:51.320 --> 00:24:54.280 Given that we have vacant lots of taking 503 00:24:54.280 --> 00:24:56.360 those vacant lots and turning them into places 504 00:24:56.360 --> 00:24:57.640 where we're producing stuff. 505 00:24:58.520 --> 00:24:59.200 Right. 506 00:24:59.840 --> 00:25:02.180 And especially for producing stuff in a way 507 00:25:02.180 --> 00:25:05.860 that's more sustainable ecologically sound. 508 00:25:07.380 --> 00:25:09.760 Wouldn't it make sense that that that actually 509 00:25:09.760 --> 00:25:11.120 has a benefit to the community. 510 00:25:11.120 --> 00:25:14.260 So the concrete jungle becomes less a concrete 511 00:25:14.260 --> 00:25:20.100 jungle and more space where there is greenery, 512 00:25:20.240 --> 00:25:23.060 where there are there is biodiversity, where there 513 00:25:23.060 --> 00:25:26.260 are things growing, where people are nurturing the 514 00:25:26.260 --> 00:25:26.560 soil. 515 00:25:27.980 --> 00:25:30.840 And that, and that can have a benefit 516 00:25:30.840 --> 00:25:36.540 in terms of tearing down the alienation of 517 00:25:36.540 --> 00:25:37.180 urban life. 518 00:25:37.180 --> 00:25:39.940 People understand where their food comes from a 519 00:25:39.940 --> 00:25:40.480 little bit more. 520 00:25:40.740 --> 00:25:40.840 Yeah. 521 00:25:41.360 --> 00:25:41.700 Right. 522 00:25:43.080 --> 00:25:46.880 And what we know is that from our 523 00:25:46.880 --> 00:25:50.480 public health specialists is things like ADHD are 524 00:25:50.480 --> 00:25:54.860 connected to people who don't get to don't 525 00:25:54.860 --> 00:25:56.160 interact with green space. 526 00:25:57.020 --> 00:25:59.200 So if there's more of this local food 527 00:25:59.200 --> 00:26:01.460 going on then there's more people more opportunities 528 00:26:01.460 --> 00:26:04.020 for people to be interacting with green stuff 529 00:26:04.020 --> 00:26:05.820 just because they walk by it every day. 530 00:26:05.980 --> 00:26:06.380 Yes. 531 00:26:06.900 --> 00:26:08.560 They have the chance to work in it 532 00:26:08.560 --> 00:26:09.840 as they get old enough to be of 533 00:26:09.840 --> 00:26:12.820 working age right so so there could be 534 00:26:12.820 --> 00:26:15.140 benefits like that we don't know that part 535 00:26:15.140 --> 00:26:17.040 of what I part of what my interviews 536 00:26:17.040 --> 00:26:23.600 will hopefully hopefully bring out is some of 537 00:26:23.600 --> 00:26:24.900 the thinking about how that happens. 538 00:26:25.380 --> 00:26:25.480 Right. 539 00:26:25.800 --> 00:26:29.920 But, but that my suspicion is that there 540 00:26:29.920 --> 00:26:31.520 is some of that there is this benefit 541 00:26:31.520 --> 00:26:34.800 to people playing with dirt. 542 00:26:34.800 --> 00:26:35.440 Yeah. 543 00:26:37.720 --> 00:26:43.320 So, so, and so that's, that's a possibility 544 00:26:43.320 --> 00:26:44.000 as well. 545 00:26:44.060 --> 00:26:49.760 That by having a localized food economy created 546 00:26:49.760 --> 00:26:54.560 a space where, where we break down the 547 00:26:54.560 --> 00:26:58.140 nature society divide, and we create more opportunities 548 00:26:58.140 --> 00:27:01.080 for community to be involved in creative production. 549 00:27:02.240 --> 00:27:03.440 Very interesting. 550 00:27:03.840 --> 00:27:05.020 Thank you for that yet again. 551 00:27:05.760 --> 00:27:09.760 So in terms of food security and local 552 00:27:09.760 --> 00:27:13.480 food, do you see any setbacks with this 553 00:27:13.480 --> 00:27:16.220 local circular model of the food production. 554 00:27:16.980 --> 00:27:19.520 And how would, how does that compare to 555 00:27:19.520 --> 00:27:23.080 a community that doesn't use these local circular 556 00:27:23.080 --> 00:27:23.480 models. 557 00:27:23.480 --> 00:27:25.760 Well, I mean the reality is you're not 558 00:27:25.760 --> 00:27:31.700 going to be in the, the reality is 559 00:27:31.700 --> 00:27:35.940 that we're a long way from being from. 560 00:27:38.480 --> 00:27:39.620 We are. 561 00:27:40.640 --> 00:27:43.860 It's probably not feasible that the staples come, 562 00:27:44.180 --> 00:27:45.240 come to people locally. 563 00:27:45.840 --> 00:27:46.340 Right. 564 00:27:48.400 --> 00:27:50.660 So there's always going to be an input 565 00:27:50.660 --> 00:27:52.300 to that from outside. 566 00:27:52.840 --> 00:27:53.000 Right. 567 00:27:53.000 --> 00:27:55.040 And in our modern society there's all this 568 00:27:55.040 --> 00:27:58.840 other stuff that we are dependent on telecommunications 569 00:27:58.840 --> 00:28:00.740 electricity so and so for all of which 570 00:28:00.740 --> 00:28:03.900 is shipped in from outside. 571 00:28:04.560 --> 00:28:06.700 So you always have to be creating wealth. 572 00:28:07.380 --> 00:28:09.880 So the economy can't just be circular it 573 00:28:09.880 --> 00:28:12.520 has to be able to move out and 574 00:28:12.520 --> 00:28:13.040 bring in. 575 00:28:13.920 --> 00:28:17.460 And, and so part of part of the 576 00:28:17.460 --> 00:28:22.300 conundrum is how do you create circular local 577 00:28:22.300 --> 00:28:27.920 economies that are also responsive to broader economic 578 00:28:27.920 --> 00:28:28.520 changes. 579 00:28:29.040 --> 00:28:29.280 Right. 580 00:28:29.640 --> 00:28:31.920 And broader economic realities. 581 00:28:33.640 --> 00:28:35.100 What is that interaction. 582 00:28:35.840 --> 00:28:36.080 Right. 583 00:28:36.960 --> 00:28:40.480 And ultimately you're interested in any given community. 584 00:28:41.720 --> 00:28:48.040 The, the potentials of creating enough wealth that 585 00:28:48.040 --> 00:28:50.400 people can still live, given that they're dependent 586 00:28:50.400 --> 00:28:51.880 on stuff coming from the outside. 587 00:28:52.640 --> 00:28:52.820 Right. 588 00:28:53.280 --> 00:28:54.420 And live well. 589 00:28:54.900 --> 00:28:55.260 Right. 590 00:28:56.180 --> 00:28:59.220 So, so there is always this interplay between 591 00:28:59.220 --> 00:29:04.460 the community and what's happening, the circulation of 592 00:29:04.460 --> 00:29:11.260 resources within the community, and the broader economic 593 00:29:11.260 --> 00:29:12.760 and broader political structure. 594 00:29:13.600 --> 00:29:13.700 Right. 595 00:29:14.080 --> 00:29:18.040 So thinking about how that works is, is 596 00:29:18.040 --> 00:29:20.340 going to be an ongoing struggle. 597 00:29:21.020 --> 00:29:22.060 I see. 598 00:29:22.060 --> 00:29:22.160 Great. 599 00:29:22.700 --> 00:29:26.380 Um, so you mentioned for to really examine 600 00:29:26.380 --> 00:29:29.620 this circular food economy you're using a framework, 601 00:29:29.820 --> 00:29:31.920 sorry I forgot the complete titles of framework, 602 00:29:32.280 --> 00:29:35.660 but, um, what made you use a framework 603 00:29:35.660 --> 00:29:37.620 like this to understand that you sidelined thing 604 00:29:37.620 --> 00:29:38.600 compared to another. 605 00:29:41.300 --> 00:29:44.240 So I, I use the community capitals framework. 606 00:29:44.990 --> 00:29:48.220 Because it allows me to think more broadly 607 00:29:48.220 --> 00:29:54.360 than just a more classic economic development framework. 608 00:29:54.700 --> 00:29:57.800 Right, so a classic cost benefit analysis, for 609 00:29:57.800 --> 00:29:58.180 instance.