WEBVTT 00:00:10.000 --> 00:00:21.000 Speaker 1 Hello and welcome to Community and University, the MSU Center for Community and Economic Development podcast aimed at providing outreach to both community members and students throughout the state of Michigan. 00:00:21.000 --> 00:00:23.000 Speaker 1 The Michigan State University, U.S. 00:00:23.000 --> 00:00:35.000 Speaker 1 Economic Development Administration, University Center for Regional Economic Innovation's mission is to stimulate innovative economic development in the most distressed communities within Michigan. 00:00:35.000 --> 00:00:44.000 Speaker 1 The REI University Center embraces a culture of regional collaboration and knowledge sharing between economic development professionals and committed scholars. 00:00:44.000 --> 00:01:05.000 Speaker 1 The center's model provides responsive community engagement, strategic partnerships, and collaborative learning to support the creation and identification of innovative tools, models, and practices to increase the number of small businesses, create access to job skill development, improve public infrastructure, advance high-growth entrepreneurship, and encourage global 00:01:05.000 --> 00:01:10.000 Speaker 1 competitiveness to strengthen underserved communities and historically excluded citizens. 00:01:10.000 --> 00:01:23.000 Speaker 1 The REI University Center's most recent award focuses on four key pillars of community and economic development that together will build up the resilience, sustainability, and equity within the communities in which it partners. 00:01:23.000 --> 00:01:31.000 Speaker 1 The 4 pillars include resiliency planning, financial resilience, circular economies, and 21st century communications. 00:01:31.000 --> 00:01:50.000 Speaker 1 The University Center will work with community partners to address these themes in Michigan Economic Development Corporation's identified redevelopment-ready communities containing opportunity zones, census tracts, and/or large concentrations of ALICE populations, or those who are asset-limited, income-constrained, employed. 00:01:50.000 --> 00:01:54.000 Speaker 1 I'm Emma Gilbert, and I'm one of the hosts for Community and University. 00:01:54.000 --> 00:02:01.000 Speaker 1 Today, we will be spotlighting one of REI Center's co-learning plan authors, Ashley Belant. 00:02:01.000 --> 00:02:04.000 Speaker 1 who is working on a project entitled Regional Tax-Based Sharing. 00:02:04.000 --> 00:02:18.000 Speaker 1 The project is aimed at stimulating the implementation of regional tax-based sharing in the Lansing, East Lansing metropolitan area so that residents, advocates, and policymakers in financially strained localities make better informed decisions. 00:02:18.000 --> 00:02:32.000 Speaker 1 Co-Learning Plan authors research innovative economic development tools, models, strategies, policies, and practices, and their findings and recommendations serve as a key resource for economic development practitioners and policymakers in Michigan. 00:02:32.000 --> 00:02:35.000 Speaker 1 Welcome to the CCEV podcast, Ashley. 00:02:35.000 --> 00:02:36.000 Speaker 2 Yeah, thank you. 00:02:36.000 --> 00:02:37.000 Speaker 2 Thanks for having me. 00:02:37.000 --> 00:02:40.000 Speaker 1 It's wonderful to have you here. 00:02:40.000 --> 00:02:54.000 Speaker 1 So before we get started into really the nitty gritty of your actual work within the center, just introduce yourself for the audience and kind of provide maybe a little bit of background on your educational as well as professional experience up to this point. 00:02:54.000 --> 00:03:02.000 Speaker 2 Yeah, so I grew up in Lansing, went to Lansing schools. 00:03:02.000 --> 00:03:08.000 Speaker 2 I attended Michigan State as an undergrad, got a degree there in social work. 00:03:08.000 --> 00:03:12.000 Speaker 2 And from there, I moved directly following that. 00:03:12.000 --> 00:03:15.000 Speaker 2 I moved to New Orleans, Louisiana. 00:03:15.000 --> 00:03:22.000 Speaker 2 And I was doing a lot of nonprofit development, really in the aftermath of Katrina. 00:03:22.000 --> 00:03:39.000 Speaker 2 When as time passed on and those disaster recovery funds started to diversify, I took a position writing and managing grants for a very large human services organization down there. 00:03:39.000 --> 00:03:45.000 Speaker 2 And what was really cool about that is I got to research 00:03:45.000 --> 00:03:48.000 Speaker 2 I was writing and managing grants for 30 different programs. 00:03:48.000 --> 00:03:57.000 Speaker 2 So I got to research so many different topic areas, foster care, elderly care, immigration, refugee. 00:03:57.000 --> 00:04:02.000 Speaker 2 But one of those subjects, we had a pretty large prison ministry. 00:04:02.000 --> 00:04:09.000 Speaker 2 And so as I became more involved in criminal justice reform, learning about it, 00:04:09.000 --> 00:04:27.000 Speaker 2 It's just like, even as a social worker, somebody who's supposed to be familiar with, oppressive forces in our society and stuff, the things I was learning just absolutely shocked me to the point that I was like, I have to. 00:04:27.000 --> 00:04:28.000 Speaker 2 do something. 00:04:28.000 --> 00:04:31.000 Speaker 2 I was like, I have to work in this field. 00:04:31.000 --> 00:04:33.000 Speaker 2 So I decided to go back to school. 00:04:33.000 --> 00:04:34.000 Speaker 2 I moved back to Michigan. 00:04:34.000 --> 00:04:44.000 Speaker 2 I just finished up an MSW there and I'm kind of working in forensic social work, which is a term for social workers working in criminal justice. 00:04:44.000 --> 00:04:44.000 Speaker 2 So. 00:04:44.000 --> 00:04:45.000 Speaker 2 Okay. 00:04:45.000 --> 00:04:50.000 Speaker 1 So I know that I have read on your profile that you work for Safe and Just Michigan. 00:04:50.000 --> 00:04:52.000 Speaker 1 Is that right? 00:04:52.000 --> 00:05:06.000 Speaker 1 Yeah, So how does like your experience working with Katrina and criminal justice reform, kind of social work, kind of lead you into working with Safe and Just Michigan and eventually economic development? 00:05:06.000 --> 00:05:18.000 Speaker 2 Yeah, so Safe and Just Michigan, so they do research, organizing, advocacy, and lobbying. 00:05:18.000 --> 00:05:19.000 Speaker 2 And 00:05:19.000 --> 00:05:37.000 Speaker 2 They were on my radar for a long time because when I was in Louisiana writing grants for my reentry programs, I was actually using, at the time their name was different, but I was using Safe and Just Research in my proposals. 00:05:37.000 --> 00:05:44.000 Speaker 2 So I knew that they were putting out this great work and then a program that I was a part of in Louisiana 00:05:44.000 --> 00:05:49.000 Speaker 2 a re-entry program was actually modeled after a program that happened in Michigan. 00:05:49.000 --> 00:05:52.000 Speaker 2 So they were kind of already on my radar. 00:05:52.000 --> 00:05:58.000 Speaker 2 And basically I saw that they had an opening and I just thought they were awesome. 00:05:58.000 --> 00:06:01.000 Speaker 2 I really wanted to work for them and I took it. 00:06:01.000 --> 00:06:14.000 Speaker 2 So, but as far as the, what kind of brought me into economic development, I would just say that I think 00:06:14.000 --> 00:06:25.000 Speaker 2 As a macro social worker, it's like, I almost feel like we could work in any field, because it's really about taking the whole big picture of a... 00:06:25.000 --> 00:06:40.000 Speaker 2 person or whoever you're applying as a person, a community, and looking at the big picture, the whole environment, looking at society, looking at the laws, looking at, I mean, even physical surroundings, and how does that affect that person? 00:06:40.000 --> 00:06:51.000 Speaker 2 So economic development to me just kind of seems like a natural thing to be interested and involved with, any sort of just advocacy for marginalized people. 00:06:51.000 --> 00:06:55.000 Speaker 1 So yeah, I was just going to ask, like, what are those intersections that you see? 00:06:55.000 --> 00:07:03.000 Speaker 1 already identified them, like thinking about, urban planning, for example, as another, kind of intersection. 00:07:03.000 --> 00:07:09.000 Speaker 1 Well, how, does placemaking affect like a person's like kind of comfortability in living? 00:07:09.000 --> 00:07:14.000 Speaker 1 We don't really think that placemaking connects with economic development until voila, here you are. 00:07:14.000 --> 00:07:20.000 Speaker 1 So I think that it's honestly really like kind of 00:07:20.000 --> 00:07:45.000 Speaker 1 deeply kind of extrospective of you, or I don't know what the word is, but very observant of you, I should say, to understand that we shouldn't pigeonhole because you got a degree in one area, that is where you work and this is a specific job you get, but then all of these issues kind of bleed together and create our larger kind of socioeconomic situation. 00:07:45.000 --> 00:07:48.000 Speaker 1 So I think that's very fascinating. 00:07:48.000 --> 00:07:49.000 Speaker 1 So now kind of moving 00:07:49.000 --> 00:07:55.000 Speaker 1 from the introduction about yourself and your background, let's get into your co-learning plan. 00:07:55.000 --> 00:08:03.000 Speaker 1 Can you provide our audience with an overview of your project, some of the research that you're conducting, and how you hope it might be implemented? 00:08:03.000 --> 00:08:12.000 Speaker 2 Yeah, so my project is around the concept of regional tax-based sharing. 00:08:12.000 --> 00:08:19.000 Speaker 2 And so what that is, typically a taxing municipality 00:08:19.000 --> 00:08:32.000 Speaker 2 taxes their businesses, their properties, they take that money in, and then they provide services for that municipality, fire departments, roads, public parks. 00:08:32.000 --> 00:08:36.000 Speaker 2 So typically that's the way it works. 00:08:36.000 --> 00:08:42.000 Speaker 2 So regional tax-based sharing has multiple taxing municipalities 00:08:42.000 --> 00:08:50.000 Speaker 2 all paying into the same pot and then redistributing that revenue back out to those communities. 00:08:50.000 --> 00:08:59.000 Speaker 2 Obviously, there's a lot more than that, but essentially, that's what tax-based sharing is. 00:08:59.000 --> 00:09:10.000 Speaker 2 And so, I'm trying to think, okay, so I don't wanna jump ahead in your questions or anything, but, so the reason I'm, 00:09:10.000 --> 00:09:11.000 Speaker 2 researching. 00:09:11.000 --> 00:09:19.000 Speaker 2 So regional tax base sharing, a lot of times, this has only actually been implemented in two places in the country. 00:09:19.000 --> 00:09:25.000 Speaker 2 One is the Twin Cities in Minneapolis, and one is an area of New Jersey. 00:09:25.000 --> 00:09:27.000 Speaker 2 So it's not a common thing. 00:09:27.000 --> 00:09:36.000 Speaker 2 But part of why this is really interesting, I think, for Michigan, and really for the Rust Belt, 00:09:36.000 --> 00:09:48.000 Speaker 2 is because this is a common brought up solution to shrinking urban cores and the spreading suburbs around it. 00:09:48.000 --> 00:09:58.000 Speaker 2 So what happens is with, a lot of our cities in the Rust Belt were built around like a single employer, a single industrial employer. 00:09:58.000 --> 00:10:01.000 Speaker 2 So with globalization happening, 00:10:01.000 --> 00:10:11.000 Speaker 2 deindustrialization, if that single employer moves out of that town, say, like a Flint kind of, they are, people are going to move. 00:10:11.000 --> 00:10:19.000 Speaker 2 So they're taking the tax revenue from the business, but then they're also taking tax revenue from people who move away because they don't have a job any longer. 00:10:19.000 --> 00:10:23.000 Speaker 2 So then they can't provide the same level of services. 00:10:23.000 --> 00:10:25.000 Speaker 2 So then people don't want to move there. 00:10:25.000 --> 00:10:29.000 Speaker 2 So it's like a vicious cycle. 00:10:29.000 --> 00:10:42.000 Speaker 2 And you could raise taxes to provide the same level of services, but then you have low-income people paying high tax rates, and you're also disincentivizing anybody to move to your area. 00:10:42.000 --> 00:10:44.000 Speaker 2 So it's kind of this vicious cycle. 00:10:44.000 --> 00:10:56.000 Speaker 2 So a lot of times what tax-based sharing is kind of thought of as a solution to is an urban core that's shrinking and surrounding suburbs. 00:10:56.000 --> 00:10:59.000 Speaker 2 So I'm not sure if that answered all of your questions. 00:10:59.000 --> 00:11:00.000 Speaker 2 I could go on. 00:11:00.000 --> 00:11:02.000 Speaker 1 Yeah, I'm sure we'll go on more. 00:11:02.000 --> 00:11:23.000 Speaker 1 But I think maybe a starting point is what did you observe in kind of maybe looking at those other programs or other like mechanisms that they've set up in maybe the Twin Cities or in that area of New Jersey you were mentioning that kind of attracted you to say, okay, maybe this is replicatable in like some areas of Michigan? 00:11:23.000 --> 00:11:28.000 Speaker 2 Yeah, I think 00:11:28.000 --> 00:11:31.000 Speaker 2 Trying to think. 00:11:31.000 --> 00:11:39.000 Speaker 2 So tax based sharing, I would say, does kind of three things, which would be. 00:11:39.000 --> 00:11:41.000 Speaker 2 very beneficial. 00:11:41.000 --> 00:11:43.000 Speaker 2 I mean, I just think of Detroit. 00:11:43.000 --> 00:11:51.000 Speaker 2 that's kind of the example I think that almost anybody in the entire country would probably use when they're talking about, a shrinking urban core. 00:11:51.000 --> 00:11:57.000 Speaker 2 That city just had a huge, huge population at one time. 00:11:57.000 --> 00:12:01.000 Speaker 2 And so, the three things that 00:12:01.000 --> 00:12:11.000 Speaker 2 I think tax-based sharing could be helpful in a city somewhat like Detroit is, of course, the redistribution of tax revenue. 00:12:11.000 --> 00:12:14.000 Speaker 2 That is controversial. 00:12:14.000 --> 00:12:21.000 Speaker 2 You know, people start seeing words like socialism or, you know, people just don't like redistribution. 00:12:21.000 --> 00:12:25.000 Speaker 2 It doesn't make sense. 00:12:25.000 --> 00:12:33.000 Speaker 2 because there are some municipalities that technically do end up losing some funds within this model. 00:12:33.000 --> 00:12:50.000 Speaker 2 But so beyond the redistribution of tax revenue, there's also other positives to this where I could see some of these suburbs that may be technically losing some of their funding could be attracted to this so that there would be some political will to do this. 00:12:50.000 --> 00:13:03.000 Speaker 2 So the second benefit of regional-based tax sharing is just a more efficient development within a region. 00:13:03.000 --> 00:13:14.000 Speaker 2 So when you have two taxing municipalities next to each other, say they can use their land in a more efficient and smart way. 00:13:14.000 --> 00:13:16.000 Speaker 2 So 00:13:16.000 --> 00:13:34.000 Speaker 2 If there's two taxing municipalities next to each other and the state wants to put in a large public park that's going to improve the quality of life, help the environment, that park is probably not going to be bringing in a lot of tax revenue. 00:13:34.000 --> 00:13:36.000 Speaker 2 If anything, it's probably going to cost taxes. 00:13:36.000 --> 00:13:41.000 Speaker 2 So you may have one urban core where 00:13:41.000 --> 00:13:57.000 Speaker 2 it's all industrialized, it's all cities, it's all cement, and then you have a suburb that has all this beautiful land, it would make a lot more sense to locate that park in the suburb where that land is, but the suburb doesn't want it because it's not generating revenue. 00:13:57.000 --> 00:14:10.000 Speaker 2 But now, if you are sharing a tax base, you're going to be able to make the smartest decisions for where things should actually be located on, and not just purely base it, just on the 00:14:10.000 --> 00:14:12.000 Speaker 2 fiscal decisions. 00:14:12.000 --> 00:14:16.000 Speaker 2 So that's a second benefit of regional tax base sharing. 00:14:16.000 --> 00:14:37.000 Speaker 2 Some people call that, some people call it the fiscalization of land use and talking about making decisions on how to plan and how to use land purely just based on money, which is not always great, especially for marginalized people. 00:14:37.000 --> 00:14:55.000 Speaker 2 And then lastly, the third benefit of regional tax base sharing, I would say, is it decreases competition between taxable municipalities to incentivize a new business to locate there. 00:14:55.000 --> 00:15:00.000 Speaker 2 So I'm sure we're all familiar with, you know, Detroit saying, 00:15:00.000 --> 00:15:06.000 Speaker 2 to this company, oh, put your factory here and you don't have to pay taxes for the next 15 years. 00:15:06.000 --> 00:15:13.000 Speaker 2 And then Ionia comes in and they're like, oh, well, if you put your factory here, you won't have to pay taxes for 20 years. 00:15:13.000 --> 00:15:24.000 Speaker 2 So now if, I know Detroit and Ionia are not, the regions don't actually have to be contiguous, but say Detroit and Ionia were sharing a tax-based region. 00:15:24.000 --> 00:15:30.000 Speaker 2 They would not then be competing against each other, offering these bigger and bigger 00:15:30.000 --> 00:15:34.000 Speaker 2 and bigger incentives for those businesses to locate there. 00:15:34.000 --> 00:15:46.000 Speaker 2 And so I see that as a positive because we want jobs, but we also want your tax money. 00:15:46.000 --> 00:15:56.000 Speaker 2 If you're a big corporation and you're coming into the area, I just think that it would probably be best for everybody if they paid their taxes. 00:15:56.000 --> 00:15:58.000 Speaker 2 So 00:15:58.000 --> 00:16:03.000 Speaker 2 So I really like the idea of decreasing that competition between taxing municipalities. 00:16:03.000 --> 00:16:28.000 Speaker 1 So it sounds like it's really an idea that's kind of, again, going back to stopping the competition that is so deeply embedded in many of the systems in which we live in the United States, but really taking a step back and going back towards that community-led or that collaborative planning kind of mechanism that once was strong, right? 00:16:28.000 --> 00:16:33.000 Speaker 1 in our society a few decades ago, many maybe. 00:16:33.000 --> 00:16:38.000 Speaker 1 And re-conceptualizing what it means to really be a community, right? 00:16:38.000 --> 00:16:42.000 Speaker 1 Like you were saying, Ionia and Detroit, they're not contiguous. 00:16:42.000 --> 00:16:56.000 Speaker 1 They don't, they're not next to each other, but they might have, interests that align with one another and kind of rethinking, why would we compete when we can really create something together that is mutually beneficial? 00:16:56.000 --> 00:16:58.000 Speaker 1 That's kind of what I'm getting out of. 00:16:58.000 --> 00:16:59.000 Speaker 1 out of what you just said? 00:16:59.000 --> 00:17:01.000 Speaker 1 Am I along the right lines? 00:17:01.000 --> 00:17:07.000 Speaker 2 Yeah, And I think even just talking about it, I think you're expanding my thinking a little bit. 00:17:07.000 --> 00:17:15.000 Speaker 2 But yes, Because even tax-based sharing can even involve like resources. 00:17:15.000 --> 00:17:27.000 Speaker 2 So if Lansing is sharing a tax base with Meridian Township and we have all the water set up and good to go, you know, we can say we'll supply 00:17:27.000 --> 00:17:30.000 Speaker 2 this new business water. 00:17:30.000 --> 00:17:37.000 Speaker 2 So there's a lot of ways it just allows regions to work together and be a lot more efficient in their planning. 00:17:37.000 --> 00:17:39.000 Speaker 1 That makes sense. 00:17:39.000 --> 00:17:43.000 Speaker 1 There's something that was similar to that out in... 00:17:43.000 --> 00:17:59.000 Speaker 1 Northern East Lansing, where there was an agreement, between, I think it was Bath Township and East Lansing, where services were provided by 1 to extend the development of apartments out there for students. 00:17:59.000 --> 00:18:08.000 Speaker 1 And over 50 years, the city in which I've got the agreement to have those services provided for 50 years will then start paying again. 00:18:08.000 --> 00:18:13.000 Speaker 1 So it kind of is that along the lines, it doesn't have to be like fiscal or, you know, brick and mortar. 00:18:13.000 --> 00:18:16.000 Speaker 1 but maybe it could be in other ways, if you were talking about a park, you know? 00:18:16.000 --> 00:18:18.000 Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah. 00:18:18.000 --> 00:18:19.000 Speaker 2 It can be in those other ways. 00:18:19.000 --> 00:18:27.000 Speaker 2 And I would say we do have some mechanisms to do some things like that here in Michigan. 00:18:27.000 --> 00:18:28.000 Speaker 2 What is it? 00:18:28.000 --> 00:18:37.000 Speaker 2 I think the contract annexation, it's like a PA 425 allows us to 00:18:37.000 --> 00:18:41.000 Speaker 2 to set up contracts like that where we're sharing services and sharing the tax base. 00:18:41.000 --> 00:18:49.000 Speaker 2 It's just tax-based sharing, it would be essentially like a next step. 00:18:49.000 --> 00:18:51.000 Speaker 2 It would 00:18:51.000 --> 00:18:57.000 Speaker 2 It would be difficult to, it would take a lot of work, I would say, to actually implement this. 00:18:57.000 --> 00:19:00.000 Speaker 2 But that doesn't mean that it's not worth it. 00:19:00.000 --> 00:19:02.000 Speaker 2 But yeah, it would have to go through the state. 00:19:02.000 --> 00:19:06.000 Speaker 2 So I would say it's similar to that, but on a next level. 00:19:06.000 --> 00:19:06.000 Speaker 1 Okay. 00:19:06.000 --> 00:19:10.000 Speaker 1 It sounds like a very kind of... 00:19:10.000 --> 00:19:35.000 Speaker 1 Maybe step-by-step process, like this isn't just a 0 to 100 thing that would happen, but there would be steps along the way to create that relationship maybe between those municipalities, develop, you know, what are our interests, what are our goals, what are our opportunities, our threats, and how can we come together and really create a plan that's beneficial in that regional tax base sharing environment. 00:19:35.000 --> 00:19:36.000 Speaker 2 Yeah, I would say so. 00:19:36.000 --> 00:19:38.000 Speaker 1 Yeah. 00:19:38.000 --> 00:19:49.000 Speaker 1 In terms of the research that you're already conducting for your co-learning plan, have you brought in any partners to help you with this work or have you used any resources that have been extremely helpful to you? 00:19:49.000 --> 00:19:53.000 Speaker 1 Can you kind of share a little inside scoop on that kind of portion? 00:19:53.000 --> 00:19:55.000 Speaker 2 Yeah, sure. 00:19:55.000 --> 00:20:02.000 Speaker 2 I would say I don't, I'm not working with anyone as a partner in an official capacity. 00:20:02.000 --> 00:20:06.000 Speaker 2 No one else is like signed on necessarily. 00:20:06.000 --> 00:20:08.000 Speaker 2 But 00:20:08.000 --> 00:20:11.000 Speaker 2 the data needs for this. 00:20:11.000 --> 00:20:19.000 Speaker 2 I'm trying to, so the Minnesota State Legislature has put out essentially a guide for 00:20:19.000 --> 00:20:24.000 Speaker 2 other states, other locations that if you wanted to implement something like this. 00:20:24.000 --> 00:20:27.000 Speaker 2 Here's a model of how you could do that. 00:20:27.000 --> 00:20:34.000 Speaker 2 And so the, I'm trying to run that with two municipalities here in Michigan. 00:20:34.000 --> 00:20:37.000 Speaker 2 The data needs for that are pretty extensive. 00:20:37.000 --> 00:20:40.000 Speaker 2 And then also I'm finding. 00:20:40.000 --> 00:20:46.000 Speaker 2 in the state of Michigan, our governance is very, very complicated. 00:20:46.000 --> 00:21:00.000 Speaker 2 So I'm just like, even just within Ingham County, I think there's 24 different taxing municipalities because we have cities, townships, and villages. 00:21:00.000 --> 00:21:09.000 Speaker 2 So I'm kind of translating the model from Minnesota to what it would look like here in Michigan, just because 00:21:09.000 --> 00:21:11.000 Speaker 2 It's very different. 00:21:11.000 --> 00:21:20.000 Speaker 2 But so with those data needs, I have been exploring GIS. 00:21:20.000 --> 00:21:30.000 Speaker 2 I'm not super familiar with it, honestly, but I am working with MSU's GIS librarian who is 00:21:30.000 --> 00:21:34.000 Speaker 2 really just showing me the capabilities of it. 00:21:34.000 --> 00:21:40.000 Speaker 2 And so once I understand that, then I'm hoping to be able to use that to get some of this data. 00:21:40.000 --> 00:21:53.000 Speaker 2 or even just to visualize it, because the work that I do for Safe and Just is, I'm doing a lot of social media, so I'm doing a lot of like visualizations of data. 00:21:53.000 --> 00:21:57.000 Speaker 2 And I know it's very helpful for people to wrap their head around something. 00:21:57.000 --> 00:22:04.000 Speaker 2 So I've been working with GIS, which is new to me, through the MSU library. 00:22:04.000 --> 00:22:17.000 Speaker 2 And I have been reaching out to the Ingham County Equalization Office because they obviously, this is what they do. 00:22:17.000 --> 00:22:32.000 Speaker 2 So I'm hoping that they can really just help me wrap my mind around what this hypothetical calculation, this fiscal disparities calculation that the Minnesota legislature put out 00:22:32.000 --> 00:22:40.000 Speaker 2 how to even translate that to Michigan's system of taxation. 00:22:40.000 --> 00:22:45.000 Speaker 2 So yeah, so I've been working with the England County Treasurer's Office and the GIS librarian at MSU. 00:22:45.000 --> 00:22:47.000 Speaker 2 And so far, they've been really helpful. 00:22:47.000 --> 00:22:47.000 Speaker 2 So. 00:22:47.000 --> 00:22:48.000 Speaker 1 That's wonderful. 00:22:48.000 --> 00:22:51.000 Speaker 1 And I agree with what you're saying, you know, 00:22:51.000 --> 00:23:07.000 Speaker 1 with the explosion of social media and the pandemic really forcing everyone to just kind of stay home for so long and everyone being digitized, you know, or not everyone, I should say, but many people in our society having access to technology in some way, shape or form. 00:23:07.000 --> 00:23:12.000 Speaker 1 A lot of visualization can be really helpful for the just digesting. 00:23:12.000 --> 00:23:15.000 Speaker 1 Like, like, I mean, even when you were talking to me, 00:23:15.000 --> 00:23:18.000 Speaker 1 you learn as you talk and you learn as you read. 00:23:18.000 --> 00:23:23.000 Speaker 1 I mean, it's all kind of helping you even distill your ideas further as you go to. 00:23:23.000 --> 00:23:23.000 Speaker 2 Yes. 00:23:23.000 --> 00:23:27.000 Speaker 1 So yeah, I'm happy you were connected with the GIS librarian. 00:23:27.000 --> 00:23:30.000 Speaker 1 I love her as well. 00:23:30.000 --> 00:23:36.000 Speaker 1 But, you know, and getting back to previously your talk about, you know, how 00:23:36.000 --> 00:23:59.000 Speaker 1 in looking at Detroit in it, how it specifically has kind of been a sore spot in the Michigan, not just Michigan, I should say, but in our nation in terms of the disparities, especially economic, environmental, social that have all gone on for decades and have been neglected in many ways for a long time. 00:23:59.000 --> 00:24:06.000 Speaker 1 In looking at some really depressed or quote marginalized communities, which they are, how 00:24:06.000 --> 00:24:25.000 Speaker 1 do you expect or how would you hope that if a regional tax base sharing model was adopted in Detroit with some other municipality, how would you hope that would impact community members themselves rather than just the municipality and its tax base, but the actual community members? 00:24:25.000 --> 00:24:53.000 Speaker 2 So from what I've been reading, just from the kind of just naturally following the logic of this, and then also what I've been reading about the, I'm doing case studies of the Twin Cities in the area in New Jersey, the Meadowlands, I think that you would start to see, I really do think that you would start to see a difference in 00:24:53.000 --> 00:24:58.000 Speaker 2 public services after just a couple of years. 00:24:58.000 --> 00:25:08.000 Speaker 2 Because as we all know, I think it was a few years ago that Detroit filed for bankruptcy. 00:25:08.000 --> 00:25:20.000 Speaker 2 So one of the reasons that people are not attracted to there is, sewer, water, trash, fire, police, fixing roads. 00:25:20.000 --> 00:25:27.000 Speaker 2 you don't, when you're bankrupt, you don't have a lot to address those issues. 00:25:27.000 --> 00:25:33.000 Speaker 2 So I feel like people would really start to notice a difference in a couple of years in the 00:25:33.000 --> 00:25:40.000 Speaker 2 level of services that they're receiving, but without their property taxes going up. 00:25:40.000 --> 00:25:49.000 Speaker 2 So I do think that this would really have an actual impact on these ALICE communities. 00:25:49.000 --> 00:25:51.000 Speaker 2 There was another thing I thought of. 00:25:51.000 --> 00:26:01.000 Speaker 2 Oh, so I think that it would start to affect services, which would be great in these urban cores. 00:26:01.000 --> 00:26:20.000 Speaker 2 But then also with that smart decision, with the smart decision making around land use, I'm not 100% sure if I'm like stretching here or like making a connection in my head that's not actually there. 00:26:20.000 --> 00:26:25.000 Speaker 2 But I feel like this starts to get into a little bit of the 00:26:25.000 --> 00:26:27.000 Speaker 2 not in my backyard kind of thing. 00:26:27.000 --> 00:26:28.000 Speaker 2 NIMBYism. 00:26:28.000 --> 00:26:30.000 Speaker 2 Yes. 00:26:30.000 --> 00:26:45.000 Speaker 2 Because a suburb does not want an affordable housing complex in their area, potentially because it's not generating any tax revenue. 00:26:45.000 --> 00:26:49.000 Speaker 2 It's subsidized by the government. 00:26:49.000 --> 00:26:51.000 Speaker 2 It's not a business. 00:26:51.000 --> 00:26:55.000 Speaker 2 There's not a ton of employees coming in. 00:26:55.000 --> 00:27:12.000 Speaker 2 So with the regional tax base sharing, there may be, it may be easier or maybe just less difficult is just the way to say it, of locating some, say, affordable housing in these suburbs or the other way around. 00:27:12.000 --> 00:27:13.000 Speaker 2 Some of these 00:27:13.000 --> 00:27:17.000 Speaker 2 kind of big box stores in the city. 00:27:17.000 --> 00:27:25.000 Speaker 2 So it's really going to help people to have more options and choices of where they want to live, where their kids want to go to school. 00:27:25.000 --> 00:27:38.000 Speaker 2 I just think that it would really affect these people living under the Alice threshold to really have a lot more choices. 00:27:38.000 --> 00:27:42.000 Speaker 2 And I hope that 00:27:42.000 --> 00:27:49.000 Speaker 2 attitudes and feelings would start to follow the money. 00:27:49.000 --> 00:27:55.000 Speaker 2 So when these communities are sharing and working together fiscally, 00:27:55.000 --> 00:28:03.000 Speaker 2 my hope would be that, when you other somebody, a lot of times it's because you don't have, you're just not in touch with them. 00:28:03.000 --> 00:28:04.000 Speaker 2 You don't see them. 00:28:04.000 --> 00:28:08.000 Speaker 2 You don't, maybe you see them on people that represent them on the news. 00:28:08.000 --> 00:28:14.000 Speaker 2 But so in working together, people are naturally going to have to interact more. 00:28:14.000 --> 00:28:24.000 Speaker 2 So I'm hoping that some of these, there would be less nimbyism, as you say, with sharing the tax base 00:28:24.000 --> 00:28:34.000 Speaker 2 in a fiscal sense, but I'm also hoping that it would evolve to start to change some of the social and the social attitudes of the community as well. 00:28:34.000 --> 00:28:38.000 Speaker 1 Yeah, I mean, I think what you just said, 00:28:38.000 --> 00:28:57.000 Speaker 1 has so much merit because, I mean, you started off your whole, this whole conversation really was saying like, if you look at the history of many of Rust Belt cities, you see that the trickle down effect or the collapse of the once, glorified cities that they were was because 00:28:57.000 --> 00:28:59.000 Speaker 1 money started to leave the city. 00:28:59.000 --> 00:29:04.000 Speaker 1 And so really what you said there about, I hope people would just follow the money. 00:29:04.000 --> 00:29:12.000 Speaker 1 Well, I think, that's really ingrained with how society at its core functions, right? 00:29:12.000 --> 00:29:16.000 Speaker 1 And so I think that is honestly a great train of thought. 00:29:16.000 --> 00:29:19.000 Speaker 1 And I hope that maybe you, I'm gonna write that down. 00:29:19.000 --> 00:29:27.000 Speaker 1 Yeah, I hope that maybe you kind of explore that more because, you know, like you said, more of the maybe less 00:29:27.000 --> 00:29:35.000 Speaker 1 segregation or maybe more, like co-learning together through a different mechanism or a new mechanism. 00:29:35.000 --> 00:29:55.000 Speaker 1 Where my mind went when I asked you the question was honestly thinking about that financialization of land use and how it leads to like excessive like services, for example, in suburbs, you know, okay, this sect of the city who's really, you know, involved in that suburban community advocates for a park. 00:29:55.000 --> 00:29:57.000 Speaker 1 But then, you know, this area 00:29:57.000 --> 00:30:03.000 Speaker 1 which is the majority, they're rather silent because they have backyards and they're not really interested. 00:30:03.000 --> 00:30:03.000 Speaker 1 Yeah. 00:30:03.000 --> 00:30:12.000 Speaker 1 So it's like, as an example, it like just stops kind of the waste of those, resources and, 00:30:12.000 --> 00:30:15.000 Speaker 1 puts land, you know, and money to better use. 00:30:15.000 --> 00:30:22.000 Speaker 1 And yeah, we all know that the environment, you know, with climate change, you know, it's very important to conserve what we have. 00:30:22.000 --> 00:30:35.000 Speaker 1 So I think that like this really is like a really broad kind of all intermingled or holistic kind of policy that could be adopted if people really kind of look at it in that way. 00:30:35.000 --> 00:30:39.000 Speaker 2 Yeah, I would say that's kind of like the. 00:30:39.000 --> 00:30:42.000 Speaker 2 gift and curse of studying this. 00:30:42.000 --> 00:30:47.000 Speaker 2 I'm like, I'm really trying to stick to my scope of work and just produce a product. 00:30:47.000 --> 00:30:57.000 Speaker 2 But I'm so interested in all these other caveats and what do you, I can't think of the word. 00:30:57.000 --> 00:30:58.000 Speaker 2 Other. 00:30:58.000 --> 00:30:59.000 Speaker 1 Tangent. 00:30:59.000 --> 00:30:59.000 Speaker 2 Tangent. 00:30:59.000 --> 00:31:00.000 Speaker 2 Thank you. 00:31:00.000 --> 00:31:02.000 Speaker 2 I just keep finding myself. 00:31:02.000 --> 00:31:09.000 Speaker 2 just going off on tangents and then two hours later, I'm studying like the effects of, so yes. 00:31:09.000 --> 00:31:10.000 Speaker 2 Yeah. 00:31:10.000 --> 00:31:14.000 Speaker 1 Well, I think that's fairly common, but it's great to be passionate about something, right? 00:31:14.000 --> 00:31:25.000 Speaker 1 I think that's also a gift too, because a lot of times I think people are confronted with issues they don't really, you know, want to deal with or aren't necessarily interested in. 00:31:25.000 --> 00:31:32.000 Speaker 1 And so therefore, you know, they might not feel so compelled to really get into the nitty gritty, but like, you 00:31:32.000 --> 00:31:36.000 Speaker 1 really like to have a passion for this and it's kind of exciting to like talk with you about it. 00:31:36.000 --> 00:31:41.000 Speaker 1 So I'm glad that we got to have this conversation. 00:31:41.000 --> 00:31:46.000 Speaker 1 Have you encountered any like specific challenges or barriers? 00:31:46.000 --> 00:31:52.000 Speaker 1 I know possibly, you know, just having two case studies that might be something you want to talk about. 00:31:52.000 --> 00:31:56.000 Speaker 1 What else would you like to kind of 00:31:56.000 --> 00:32:04.000 Speaker 1 dig through as you continue to finish and produce that final work. 00:32:04.000 --> 00:32:24.000 Speaker 2 Yeah, I would say what's been the most difficult for me is just Michigan's very, very, very confusing system of governance and taxation. 00:32:24.000 --> 00:32:38.000 Speaker 2 I really, in my mind, I thought, I could look at this formula from Minnesota and their counties and their municipalities and just translate it to some of ours. 00:32:38.000 --> 00:32:51.000 Speaker 2 But I am now realizing that I really need to, I'm having to fully understand how our townships and governance 00:32:51.000 --> 00:32:56.000 Speaker 2 are formed in this state because it's different than a lot of other states. 00:32:56.000 --> 00:33:01.000 Speaker 2 And then how those taxing authorities are then formed. 00:33:01.000 --> 00:33:10.000 Speaker 2 Because at first I was thinking, oh, you know, I may run this calculation on the Lansing, East Lansing metropolitan area. 00:33:10.000 --> 00:33:11.000 Speaker 2 But then 00:33:11.000 --> 00:33:21.000 Speaker 2 when I realized how many taxing municipalities were within those four counties, I was just like, that's absolutely impossible. 00:33:21.000 --> 00:33:32.000 Speaker 2 So really, I just think like, just figuring out, so, okay, so I was thinking at first, you know, oh, maybe I'll run this with Ingham County versus Shiawassee County. 00:33:32.000 --> 00:33:37.000 Speaker 2 And that was very, very, 00:33:37.000 --> 00:33:43.000 Speaker 2 limited thinking, because within Ingham County, there's 24 taxing municipalities. 00:33:43.000 --> 00:34:06.000 Speaker 2 So really just understanding our governance system here, and then translating, because this work is done in, has been done in Minnesota, New Jersey, and then they tried it in California and didn't pass, but translating that somewhat limited research and somewhat limited 00:34:06.000 --> 00:34:16.000 Speaker 2 hypotheticals or like feasibility studies, translating that to work in Michigan is actually probably my biggest challenge, I would say right now. 00:34:16.000 --> 00:34:18.000 Speaker 1 So I think that's a real challenge. 00:34:18.000 --> 00:34:27.000 Speaker 1 I mean, just hearing you talk about different structures, I didn't even, when you live here, you don't really think about the fact that most other states don't have townships. 00:34:27.000 --> 00:34:28.000 Speaker 2 Yeah. 00:34:28.000 --> 00:34:30.000 Speaker 1 And we have hundreds. 00:34:30.000 --> 00:34:31.000 Speaker 2 Yeah, a lot. 00:34:31.000 --> 00:34:32.000 Speaker 1 Yeah. 00:34:32.000 --> 00:34:33.000 Speaker 1 So I think that's very valid. 00:34:33.000 --> 00:34:35.000 Speaker 1 It's interesting. 00:34:35.000 --> 00:34:54.000 Speaker 1 getting back to kind of like the larger mission of the REI Center and how your work really moves that mission forward, what about your project makes you really feel like it is innovative in this world where there is a lot of research going on? 00:34:54.000 --> 00:35:06.000 Speaker 2 I feel like an obvious answer would be just that only two places are doing this in the country. 00:35:06.000 --> 00:35:10.000 Speaker 2 But just, that there's more to it than that. 00:35:10.000 --> 00:35:19.000 Speaker 2 if two places were doing something that's not good and the reason nobody's replicating it is because it doesn't work, then, that would make sense. 00:35:19.000 --> 00:35:28.000 Speaker 2 I just think that, sorry, okay, how does this relate to REI's bigger mission? 00:35:28.000 --> 00:35:33.000 Speaker 2 So what I think is, 00:35:33.000 --> 00:35:50.000 Speaker 2 I would say that this is extremely, extremely practical or related to financial resiliency planning for cities. 00:35:50.000 --> 00:35:59.000 Speaker 2 In kind of saving potentially saving or whatever word you want to use some of our urban cores that are experiencing this. 00:35:59.000 --> 00:36:06.000 Speaker 2 These kind of collapses, I know i'm kind of hoping that the green industry comes in and. 00:36:06.000 --> 00:36:10.000 Speaker 2 picks up where some of the auto industry left off. 00:36:10.000 --> 00:36:19.000 Speaker 2 But I don't think that just relying on a single industry is, that's not good financial resiliency planning. 00:36:19.000 --> 00:36:30.000 Speaker 2 So I think that a tool like this could potentially help us Rust Belt states move away from, it's just a creative idea. 00:36:30.000 --> 00:36:36.000 Speaker 2 It's another way to think about sustainability 00:36:36.000 --> 00:36:58.000 Speaker 2 and kind of the long-term financial resiliency rather than who can we, who can we give huge cuts to so that they'll come and locate in our town just for them to, who knows, everybody's working from home now for them to move out of the town, in 10 years or something. 00:36:58.000 --> 00:37:04.000 Speaker 2 So I think that it's very applicable to financial resiliency planning. 00:37:04.000 --> 00:37:19.000 Speaker 2 One of the things that I think as far as being innovative, like I said, only implemented in two areas, I think part of it is potentially the way that people are viewing it. 00:37:19.000 --> 00:37:33.000 Speaker 2 So if you just purely look at the numbers, it's gonna, redistribution is not popular politically with a lot of people and folks and sectors. 00:37:33.000 --> 00:37:36.000 Speaker 2 So I think that we can't talk about it that way. 00:37:36.000 --> 00:38:03.000 Speaker 2 I think if we take, kind of just like everything else, take a more holistic view of what regional tax-based sharing could be, and that it truly does have benefits for municipalities that may technically not be gaining anything or even slightly losing some revenue, I think that if we can look at it from a different perspective and get, you know, 00:38:03.000 --> 00:38:14.000 Speaker 2 my life as an advocate, I just feel like I'm not gonna, you have to talk to different people differently. 00:38:14.000 --> 00:38:26.000 Speaker 2 You know, if I'm, I can't appeal to somebody who's like morality and their compassion and good heartedness to help little babies, you know, some people will respond to that. 00:38:26.000 --> 00:38:31.000 Speaker 2 Some people will say, okay, well, why would I spend all this money when, you know, what's the return on investment? 00:38:31.000 --> 00:38:34.000 Speaker 2 So I just think that 00:38:34.000 --> 00:38:45.000 Speaker 2 I want to frame this in a way that it's attractive to a lot of different spaces. 00:38:45.000 --> 00:38:50.000 Speaker 2 And in a holistic view of how this is beneficial for the entire region participating in it. 00:38:50.000 --> 00:38:50.000 Speaker 2 Right. 00:38:50.000 --> 00:39:02.000 Speaker 1 So maybe like moving away from just looking at the financial kind of implication of like adopting a program, but really like seeing that like long-term vision that you were kind of talking about for a while. 00:39:02.000 --> 00:39:09.000 Speaker 1 Yeah, I totally see how that is a very innovative way to look at, you know, 00:39:09.000 --> 00:39:14.000 Speaker 1 an idea that has been implemented, but hasn't been widely tested, but there's opportunity there. 00:39:14.000 --> 00:39:15.000 Speaker 1 Yeah, right. 00:39:15.000 --> 00:39:30.000 Speaker 1 And so, and kind of jumping off the point of there being opportunity and talking about the fact that maybe it isn't so politically, you know, attractive to talk about 00:39:30.000 --> 00:39:46.000 Speaker 1 redistribution or things of that nature, you know, what potential, if you could forecast, do you see of a program kind of becoming implemented in a Michigan community or in a region of Michigan, perhaps? 00:39:46.000 --> 00:39:50.000 Speaker 2 So as part of my co-learning plan, I'm 00:39:50.000 --> 00:39:58.000 Speaker 2 Just to be honest, I'm still actually figuring out what legislative steps would be needed to actually implement this. 00:39:58.000 --> 00:40:07.000 Speaker 2 So I'm not entirely sure of all the legal steps that would be needed. 00:40:07.000 --> 00:40:14.000 Speaker 2 I do know that this would involve state legislature, even if so it would be higher than local. 00:40:14.000 --> 00:40:21.000 Speaker 2 But you know, I see 00:40:21.000 --> 00:40:28.000 Speaker 2 I see that there's, I could see there being political will for something like this. 00:40:28.000 --> 00:40:44.000 Speaker 2 So I think the angle I want to take on this is, so we're already doing something somewhat similar on a much smaller scale through this contract annexation. 00:40:44.000 --> 00:40:47.000 Speaker 2 So we can, so we, 00:40:47.000 --> 00:40:56.000 Speaker 2 people in people that have the power to implement this should already be familiar with some of the benefits of something similar to this. 00:40:56.000 --> 00:41:13.000 Speaker 2 So I think that if we could spin this and kind of point out very clearly like the differences and the similarities between something like PA 425, I think that would give 00:41:13.000 --> 00:41:21.000 Speaker 2 Michigan lawmakers like a much better starting point because then they're not coming from, what is this idea? 00:41:21.000 --> 00:41:23.000 Speaker 2 I don't know what you're talking about. 00:41:23.000 --> 00:41:28.000 Speaker 2 It gives them a piece of context and it's not so scary. 00:41:28.000 --> 00:41:31.000 Speaker 2 So I do think that's a good angle to take. 00:41:31.000 --> 00:41:34.000 Speaker 2 And then of course, 00:41:34.000 --> 00:41:37.000 Speaker 2 It's not like nobody's. 00:41:37.000 --> 00:41:42.000 Speaker 2 Of course, I'm sure the municipalities that need the revenue would probably be pushing for this as well. 00:41:42.000 --> 00:41:44.000 Speaker 2 So. 00:41:44.000 --> 00:41:45.000 Speaker 2 Yeah. 00:41:45.000 --> 00:41:49.000 Speaker 1 Well, I think that that's all the questions that I have for you. 00:41:49.000 --> 00:41:52.000 Speaker 1 But do you have anything else that you would like to share? 00:41:52.000 --> 00:41:54.000 Speaker 1 Any exciting news? 00:41:54.000 --> 00:42:04.000 Speaker 1 Anything that we didn't touch on that you feel is really relevant to share with the audience before we wrap up today's conversation. 00:42:04.000 --> 00:42:07.000 Speaker 2 I feel like we covered most of it. 00:42:07.000 --> 00:42:17.000 Speaker 2 I'm definitely excited to, I know that the center is going to try to, we have the summit. 00:42:17.000 --> 00:42:24.000 Speaker 2 I know they published this, but I'm really excited and I'm going to try to get this out to as many people that will listen to me. 00:42:24.000 --> 00:42:31.000 Speaker 2 So, you know, if this, the product should be wrapped up, 00:42:31.000 --> 00:42:33.000 Speaker 2 before September. 00:42:33.000 --> 00:42:38.000 Speaker 2 So just, if anyone else is interested, I'd be happy to talk to them about it. 00:42:38.000 --> 00:42:39.000 Speaker 2 So that's wonderful. 00:42:39.000 --> 00:42:42.000 Speaker 1 And they can find your contact information on the REI website. 00:42:42.000 --> 00:42:43.000 Speaker 1 So that's perfect. 00:42:43.000 --> 00:42:46.000 Speaker 1 It's already available. 00:42:46.000 --> 00:42:48.000 Speaker 1 thank you for joining us today, Ashley. 00:42:48.000 --> 00:42:51.000 Speaker 1 We look forward to the completion of your research. 00:42:51.000 --> 00:43:02.000 Speaker 1 And this has been Community and University with Ashley Belant discussing her project, regional tax-based sharing to build financial resilience in the greater Michigan area. 00:43:02.000 --> 00:43:07.000 Speaker 1 Tune in next time for another interview with an REI project leader.