WEBVTT 00:00:04.000 --> 00:00:15.000 Speaker 1 Hello and welcome to Community and University, the MSU Center for Community and Economic Development podcast aimed at providing outreach to both community members and students throughout the state of Michigan. 00:00:15.000 --> 00:00:17.000 Speaker 1 The Michigan State University U.S. 00:00:17.000 --> 00:00:29.000 Speaker 1 Economic Development Administration University Center for Regional Economic Innovation's mission is to stimulate innovative economic development in the most distressed communities within Michigan. 00:00:29.000 --> 00:00:39.000 Speaker 1 The REI University Center embraces a culture of regional collaboration and knowledge sharing between economic development professionals and committed scholars. 00:00:39.000 --> 00:00:59.000 Speaker 1 The center's model provides responsive community engagement, strategic partnerships, and collaborative learning to support the creation and identification of innovative tools, models, and practices to increase the number of small businesses, create access to job skill development, improve public infrastructure, advance high-growth entrepreneurship, and 00:00:59.000 --> 00:01:07.000 Speaker 1 encourage global competitiveness to strengthen underserved communities and historically excluded citizens. 00:01:07.000 --> 00:01:20.000 Speaker 1 The REI University Center's most recent award focuses on four key pillars of community and economic development that together will build up the resilience, sustainability, and equity within the communities in which it partners. 00:01:20.000 --> 00:01:28.000 Speaker 1 The four pillars include resiliency planning, financial resilience, circular economies, and 21st century communications. 00:01:28.000 --> 00:01:47.000 Speaker 1 The University Center will work with community partners to address these themes in Michigan Economic Development Corporation identified redevelopment-ready communities containing Opportunity Zone census tracts and/or large populations of ALICEs, or those who are asset-limited, income-constrained, employed. 00:01:47.000 --> 00:01:51.000 Speaker 1 I'm Emma Gilbert, and I'm one of the hosts for Community and University. 00:01:51.000 --> 00:01:58.000 Speaker 1 Today, we will be spotlighting two of the REI Center's Innovation Fellows, David Palmer and Tony Willis. 00:01:58.000 --> 00:02:05.000 Speaker 1 David is working on a project entitled Growing a Well-Functioning Homebuyer Ecosystem for Low-Medium Income Detroiters. 00:02:05.000 --> 00:02:11.000 Speaker 1 Tony is working on a project entitled Exploring Communal and Cooperative Investment Models for Lansing. 00:02:11.000 --> 00:02:19.000 Speaker 1 Together, both of these projects aim to build financial resilience in the Detroit and Lansing communities. 00:02:19.000 --> 00:02:28.000 Speaker 1 Innovation Fellows provide on-the-ground support and coordination to move these concepts to actions, implementing new economic development tools, models, and policies. 00:02:28.000 --> 00:02:32.000 Speaker 1 Welcome to the CCED podcast, Devin and Tony. 00:02:32.000 --> 00:02:34.000 Speaker 2 Thank you for having us. 00:02:34.000 --> 00:02:34.000 Speaker 3 Good times. 00:02:34.000 --> 00:02:35.000 Speaker 3 Thank you. 00:02:35.000 --> 00:02:41.000 Speaker 1 So I know both of you guys were previously on a podcast with this REI Center. 00:02:41.000 --> 00:03:02.000 Speaker 1 Today, we're kind of transitioning away from focusing on your individual projects, but more into identifying the intersections in the work that you guys are doing, especially with regard to building our financial resilience in two different communities, but identifying those similarities and differences in which you've encountered in the progression of your work. 00:03:02.000 --> 00:03:04.000 Speaker 1 And so today's conversation 00:03:04.000 --> 00:03:10.000 Speaker 1 This conversation will highlight what we will call the democratization of financial resilience. 00:03:10.000 --> 00:03:17.000 Speaker 1 And I'd like to begin just by understanding what democratization as a term means to each of you. 00:03:17.000 --> 00:03:20.000 Speaker 1 So David or Tony, do you want to start us off? 00:03:20.000 --> 00:03:22.000 Speaker 2 Thank you, David. 00:03:22.000 --> 00:03:24.000 Speaker 2 I guess I'll jump in here. 00:03:24.000 --> 00:03:33.000 Speaker 2 So I hear the term democratization in relation to economic development tools and programming. 00:03:33.000 --> 00:03:51.000 Speaker 2 It kind of talks about, from my angle, and the title of the project is the communal aspect, where the community has ownership and governance of the resources to help build the prosperity the community deserves and the community believes it needs to have. 00:03:51.000 --> 00:04:00.000 Speaker 2 And so that's where I come, or I believe where democratization fits in my project when I comes to first in mind of that space. 00:04:00.000 --> 00:04:03.000 Speaker 2 And we'll talk about how 00:04:03.000 --> 00:04:11.000 Speaker 2 both the worker-owned cooperative as well as the community investment trust models relate to that further in this conversation. 00:04:11.000 --> 00:04:14.000 Speaker 2 I'd like to hear David's thoughts on that. 00:04:14.000 --> 00:04:32.000 Speaker 3 So democratization of financial access and resources, I think also encompasses the fact that if everyone has equal access, then the opportunities and challenge matrix changes. 00:04:32.000 --> 00:04:47.000 Speaker 3 currently because not everyone is banked or bankable, or because the investor class typically reaps the investment and the rewards, the community is oftentimes left out of those opportunities. 00:04:47.000 --> 00:04:56.000 Speaker 3 So the community investment trust model that Tony just mentioned is particularly interesting when you're looking at redevelopment of a geo-fenced area. 00:04:56.000 --> 00:05:00.000 Speaker 3 So a neighborhood or an entire city or a region, 00:05:00.000 --> 00:05:28.000 Speaker 3 If the residents of those communities gain financial stake through a legal vehicle like a trust, then there's opportunities for more folks to benefit than just the investor class that typically comes in with a plan, executes the plan with some or nominal community input, and then benefits the financial rewards of the plan. 00:05:28.000 --> 00:05:47.000 Speaker 3 So it turns economic development measures as we typically understand them on their head a bit when you can't run through a simple algorithm, what the economic impact in air quotes would be for the community because you're not really considering the whole community. 00:05:47.000 --> 00:05:58.000 Speaker 3 You're only considering the limited inputs from the investors and the public sector that is subsidizing in many cases, the investors to put a number 00:05:58.000 --> 00:06:01.000 Speaker 3 of jobs or a building or a series of buildings in place. 00:06:01.000 --> 00:06:04.000 Speaker 1 That's wonderful. 00:06:04.000 --> 00:06:15.000 Speaker 1 I think you guys really nailed what democratization means to you, and not just to you, but into the planning profession and community and economic development profession in general. 00:06:15.000 --> 00:06:18.000 Speaker 1 Do you have you understood 00:06:18.000 --> 00:06:25.000 Speaker 1 from your perspective, why this democratization has been maybe on the forefront more now so than it has been in previous years. 00:06:25.000 --> 00:06:35.000 Speaker 1 What might be the motivation behind planners in really trying to drive that point home now than previous to the pandemic? 00:06:35.000 --> 00:06:48.000 Speaker 3 I think if you want to talk about equity and opportunities and equal protection for addressing resources, and you want to do that with a strict face, 00:06:48.000 --> 00:06:55.000 Speaker 3 then I think you need to be considering the broader participation of the community in these investments. 00:06:55.000 --> 00:07:02.000 Speaker 3 Because ultimately, we're oftentimes talking about public investments in resources. 00:07:02.000 --> 00:07:10.000 Speaker 3 And those resources are not available to the public, except in sort of nominally, legally defined ways. 00:07:10.000 --> 00:07:18.000 Speaker 3 So for example, if you're talking about investing in a sports ball stadium, then 00:07:18.000 --> 00:07:23.000 Speaker 3 10s or hundreds and millions or even billions of dollars can be invested into those things. 00:07:23.000 --> 00:07:30.000 Speaker 3 And economic developers have traditionally said, well, it's going to attract all these people and there's going to be this rollover to small businesses. 00:07:30.000 --> 00:07:35.000 Speaker 3 But the folks that live in the neighborhoods deal with the traffic. 00:07:35.000 --> 00:07:44.000 Speaker 3 They deal with people not from their community, using their community as a playground and all of the benefits and negatives that come from that. 00:07:44.000 --> 00:08:10.000 Speaker 3 And ultimately, you have sports ball players who are receiving 10s or hundreds of millions of dollars in compensation from the receipts to gain entry to the stadium and on the TV and all these things that don't necessarily benefit communities that are even directly adjacent, except through this theoretical exercise of the number of people that show up to a bar or restaurant, which is important, but it 00:08:10.000 --> 00:08:18.000 Speaker 3 doesn't fundamentally impact the neighbors unless they happen to be a waiter or a waitress or a small business owner. 00:08:18.000 --> 00:08:28.000 Speaker 3 And even then, that impact is limited to the 10, 50, or 100 engagements a year that occur through that facility. 00:08:28.000 --> 00:08:39.000 Speaker 2 So I think that's definitely one of the main drivers there for why this type of democratization is happening in this space. 00:08:39.000 --> 00:09:03.000 Speaker 2 that inequality and knowing where values are, the value is, and the access to that value is not had by the majority or many, especially in certain demographics, that has been more prevalent or at least top of mind now in conversation than has been in years past. 00:09:03.000 --> 00:09:06.000 Speaker 2 I think the pandemic 00:09:06.000 --> 00:09:19.000 Speaker 2 The celestial bodies aligned where additional awakening took place in what's going on, how other folks couldn't deal with the pandemic as well as other people did. 00:09:19.000 --> 00:09:21.000 Speaker 2 It hurt a lot of people. 00:09:21.000 --> 00:09:21.000 Speaker 2 The majority hurt. 00:09:21.000 --> 00:09:24.000 Speaker 2 Some people prospered in this space. 00:09:24.000 --> 00:09:27.000 Speaker 2 But people that hurt the suffering wasn't equal suffering. 00:09:27.000 --> 00:09:29.000 Speaker 2 There's some groups in cities and communities. 00:09:29.000 --> 00:09:33.000 Speaker 2 that were hit extraordinarily hard, then why is that? 00:09:33.000 --> 00:09:41.000 Speaker 2 This thing across, 'cause it showed that not all cities are treated equally, not all communities are treated equally. 00:09:41.000 --> 00:09:48.000 Speaker 2 And then who decides to how those resources are distributed, right? 00:09:48.000 --> 00:09:51.000 Speaker 2 And who really has that community's best interest at heart? 00:09:51.000 --> 00:09:58.000 Speaker 2 And if it's not attached to the local level to those that live there, 00:09:58.000 --> 00:10:07.000 Speaker 2 Those that reside there on a day in, day out baseline, when they just come in for the conference or come in for work and commute out, you actually live there. 00:10:07.000 --> 00:10:13.000 Speaker 2 If they're not really the hours that be, they can decide then there's something going on. 00:10:13.000 --> 00:10:26.000 Speaker 2 And I think David would perfectly, a lot of time investment skews heavily the amount of involvement, amount of direction the program grows. 00:10:26.000 --> 00:10:28.000 Speaker 2 And normally, 00:10:28.000 --> 00:10:36.000 Speaker 2 A lot of folks in a lot of communities are not making hundreds of thousands of dollars annually for the median income in America, six or seven thousand dollars, right? 00:10:36.000 --> 00:10:38.000 Speaker 2 And that's the median. 00:10:38.000 --> 00:10:42.000 Speaker 2 And there's a lot of folks that are less than that in that space. 00:10:42.000 --> 00:10:47.000 Speaker 2 It's really understanding how dollars show and dollars create leverage. 00:10:47.000 --> 00:10:49.000 Speaker 2 And unfortunately, a lot of these communities don't have that leverage. 00:10:49.000 --> 00:10:53.000 Speaker 2 So a long-winded way, but I think we're 00:10:53.000 --> 00:11:04.000 Speaker 2 All those things combined and created this additional need as saying local control and authority and at least a voice to be had in the process. 00:11:04.000 --> 00:11:19.000 Speaker 3 Yeah, so with the research project that I have going on, there's an investment being made by taxpayers in the city of Detroit to rehabilitate about 1,500 homes. 00:11:19.000 --> 00:11:28.000 Speaker 3 And those homes all happen to be in neighborhoods with very low probability that they will gain a mortgage to be purchased. 00:11:28.000 --> 00:11:37.000 Speaker 3 So normal humans looking to buy a house are not likely to be people that are gonna be purchasing these properties if the system continues as it is. 00:11:37.000 --> 00:11:46.000 Speaker 3 So we're, by extrapolation, supporting the investor community through 00:11:46.000 --> 00:11:53.000 Speaker 3 tax subsidies, and in this case, hundreds of millions of dollars that were bonded by taxpayers through the city. 00:11:53.000 --> 00:11:58.000 Speaker 3 And if we want normal humans to get access to those properties, i.e. 00:11:58.000 --> 00:12:09.000 Speaker 3 democratization of capital and public investment, then we need to have programs and indeed interventions that allow for that marketplace to be established. 00:12:09.000 --> 00:12:10.000 Speaker 3 Because 00:12:10.000 --> 00:12:30.000 Speaker 3 the bricks and mortar lenders and online lenders of the world are very, very unlikely to make a loan to a median income Detroiter who's making 30 to $35,000 a year in their household to renovate a home that the city has already put in place. 00:12:30.000 --> 00:12:36.000 Speaker 3 So just because we've always done economic development in a certain method 00:12:36.000 --> 00:12:43.000 Speaker 3 doesn't mean that can't change to be responsive to the evolving needs of the community. 00:12:43.000 --> 00:12:57.000 Speaker 3 And the democratization of access to capital through community capital, impact investing, and indeed leveraging the once in three generation opportunity we have with the ARPA investments that are in our communities. 00:12:57.000 --> 00:13:13.000 Speaker 3 If we don't think about how to do that in a very specific way that benefits our neighbors, then those dollars will be piddled away through program management consultants and limited impact projects. 00:13:13.000 --> 00:13:14.000 Speaker 3 That will. 00:13:14.000 --> 00:13:16.000 Speaker 3 come to fruition over the next couple of years. 00:13:16.000 --> 00:13:40.000 Speaker 3 So it's a rare window of opportunity to influence the way that capital is distributed through the public sector to actually benefit the public rather than a very narrow band of investment class organizations and individuals, which often very happen to be the wealthy Caucasian class in this country. 00:13:40.000 --> 00:13:59.000 Speaker 3 So if we want to make sure that dollars and investments make it further into communities of color, then we need to engage in those communities and determine what those communities actually want on the ground versus what they're voluntold by the political and municipal management class. 00:13:59.000 --> 00:13:59.000 Speaker 2 Yeah. 00:13:59.000 --> 00:14:01.000 Speaker 2 I want to jump on that for David. 00:14:01.000 --> 00:14:05.000 Speaker 2 I love how you said the way as 00:14:05.000 --> 00:14:13.000 Speaker 2 profession of economic development must always keep its finger to the pulse of the community and the local economy. 00:14:13.000 --> 00:14:22.000 Speaker 2 And the tools that worked at that generation or at that point in time doesn't mean they'll always be the same moving forward, right? 00:14:22.000 --> 00:14:27.000 Speaker 2 You know, the game changes and that's the change is the only constant here. 00:14:27.000 --> 00:14:29.000 Speaker 2 And whether it's 00:14:29.000 --> 00:14:46.000 Speaker 2 us changing it or it's been forced upon us in some way, you have to adapt, you have to step up and meet the need and meet the call of duty at that point in time to do the job and profession as justice and the community, the respect they deserve that space. 00:14:46.000 --> 00:14:55.000 Speaker 2 Along those lines, when we think of how the wealth building mechanisms of America 00:14:55.000 --> 00:15:20.000 Speaker 2 I look at, and this work comes to my project, both when ownership of real estate and business, the entity or the organizational structure of a business are two major, both generating asset classes that for a long period of time in the United States history, 00:15:20.000 --> 00:15:26.000 Speaker 2 Black people have not been able to actually participate in, especially in the housing market. 00:15:26.000 --> 00:15:40.000 Speaker 2 And there's been tons of statistical data and evidence that show the longstanding effects that has from the GI Bill and the lack of Black people being accepted or approved in that space. 00:15:40.000 --> 00:15:48.000 Speaker 2 And that was one of the big boosters and boosters of the economy because your home 00:15:48.000 --> 00:15:50.000 Speaker 2 continue to grow and that home was not owned. 00:15:50.000 --> 00:15:55.000 Speaker 2 And then when black people were allowed to buy homes, it was in certain areas, right? 00:15:55.000 --> 00:16:01.000 Speaker 2 You're only allowed to buy homes in an area that the system allowed you to buy homes in. 00:16:01.000 --> 00:16:04.000 Speaker 2 It wasn't a free for all. 00:16:04.000 --> 00:16:07.000 Speaker 2 And that was never, you were, yeah, you could buy a house in this location. 00:16:07.000 --> 00:16:10.000 Speaker 2 next to the plant, next to the pollution. 00:16:10.000 --> 00:16:11.000 Speaker 2 That was the thing. 00:16:11.000 --> 00:16:15.000 Speaker 2 You can get to work early on time because you live right there. 00:16:15.000 --> 00:16:17.000 Speaker 2 But that is the case, as we know. 00:16:17.000 --> 00:16:21.000 Speaker 2 And it's kind of like, and you say it like this, like, wow, that's a part of it. 00:16:21.000 --> 00:16:29.000 Speaker 2 And then when it comes to ownership, the game is being played. 00:16:29.000 --> 00:16:31.000 Speaker 2 The chess board is already in motion. 00:16:31.000 --> 00:16:33.000 Speaker 2 And if I'm already playing a game, 00:16:33.000 --> 00:16:41.000 Speaker 2 And it's already in motion, maybe that's not the best analogy, but whatever game we're thinking that there's characters on the board and there's things happening and the hand is already being set. 00:16:41.000 --> 00:16:45.000 Speaker 2 And I say, hey, I'm gonna jump in the game now, where do I start? 00:16:45.000 --> 00:16:49.000 Speaker 2 You can't start, the playing field is no longer the same as once the one started. 00:16:49.000 --> 00:16:59.000 Speaker 2 So you have to think of how do I interject new tactics to allow the new participant a chance to participate in what's already taking place. 00:16:59.000 --> 00:17:01.000 Speaker 2 If not, 00:17:01.000 --> 00:17:01.000 Speaker 2 Why even bother? 00:17:01.000 --> 00:17:03.000 Speaker 2 It's just lip service. 00:17:03.000 --> 00:17:05.000 Speaker 2 You're just there for cannon fodder at that point. 00:17:05.000 --> 00:17:17.000 Speaker 2 If we really allow you a row or a special card to flip, that'll make you jump 20 spaces, or it has to be something there that make it even worth your, like really to get into the game. 00:17:17.000 --> 00:17:27.000 Speaker 2 And so both try to look at the community investment trust model as a way that the community 00:17:27.000 --> 00:17:32.000 Speaker 2 not just tied to black people, but the community of maybe an impoverished area. 00:17:32.000 --> 00:17:41.000 Speaker 2 That's by our lack of invested area, the community can own a property and own a piece of commercial real estate that can be a wealth building tool. 00:17:41.000 --> 00:17:46.000 Speaker 2 And also they can help control and dictate what goes in that space. 00:17:46.000 --> 00:17:48.000 Speaker 2 You know, maybe they don't want another 00:17:48.000 --> 00:17:53.000 Speaker 2 payday advanced loan space, or another liquor store in that community. 00:17:53.000 --> 00:17:55.000 Speaker 2 Yeah, that's the things that you don't have to be there. 00:17:55.000 --> 00:18:00.000 Speaker 2 That's very generic, but you go to a lot of strip malls, a lot of certain locations, those are prevalent, right? 00:18:00.000 --> 00:18:14.000 Speaker 2 Then the worker owner succession planning is that a lot of employees might not even think that they're in a position to own a business. 00:18:14.000 --> 00:18:19.000 Speaker 2 But they probably, if they do the job, we've done the job for over a decade or years and years, you know your job. 00:18:19.000 --> 00:18:23.000 Speaker 2 You probably have a good understanding of what's going on in the business itself. 00:18:23.000 --> 00:18:32.000 Speaker 2 How can we position that where they can have a succession plan, collectively take ownership out of from the current owner? 00:18:32.000 --> 00:18:37.000 Speaker 2 Because just like most Americans, most businesses don't have succession plans. 00:18:37.000 --> 00:18:40.000 Speaker 2 What happens when I'm ready to retire, right? 00:18:40.000 --> 00:18:43.000 Speaker 2 And so both these, 00:18:43.000 --> 00:18:55.000 Speaker 2 ideas and projects here are really grounded in getting folks the access into both generating tools that have been long 00:18:55.000 --> 00:19:02.000 Speaker 2 for many of folks have not been had access to, and others might even think they even can achieve that. 00:19:02.000 --> 00:19:10.000 Speaker 3 So building on the game analogy is imagine you're a player that comes to a game of Monopoly where all the properties are already purchased. 00:19:10.000 --> 00:19:25.000 Speaker 3 But if you expanded the Monopoly board by 30 or 40% and put new properties in place, and those properties were first targeted to folks that didn't have assets in play, 00:19:25.000 --> 00:19:50.000 Speaker 3 then I think you're talking about inviting players to the game that they're going to be however many steps behind players that were already in the game, but now they at least have a way to get their foot in the door to establish a stake and earn resources off of the new properties that come onto the board. 00:19:50.000 --> 00:20:15.000 Speaker 3 So if we're talking about the project that I'm working on in Detroit, where we're focused on first further developing the home buyer education system to allow for more thoughtful data collection and braided resources for program participants from the perspective of the education provider who is themselves under-resourced in the game. 00:20:15.000 --> 00:20:20.000 Speaker 3 And then, all right, so now you've got educated, 00:20:20.000 --> 00:20:26.000 Speaker 3 home buyers creating a demand metric for a resource that has very limited availability. 00:20:26.000 --> 00:20:41.000 Speaker 3 So in this situation, the resource that's limited available is move-in ready single-family homes, whereby investments have already been made by the public sector into bringing some of these homes up to speed. 00:20:41.000 --> 00:20:53.000 Speaker 3 So getting them finished has traditionally been, we'll throw it over the fence to the investor class for whatever they're willing to pay for it at, quote, market rate, end quote. 00:20:53.000 --> 00:21:02.000 Speaker 3 Here, the intervention would allow for nonprofit community development organizations to gain access to those properties. 00:21:02.000 --> 00:21:10.000 Speaker 3 bring those properties up to certificate of occupancy with new furnace, new kitchen, new bathrooms, flooring. 00:21:10.000 --> 00:21:11.000 Speaker 3 So who's going to do all that work? 00:21:11.000 --> 00:21:17.000 Speaker 3 Well, we have an awful lot of resources available for workforce training programs. 00:21:17.000 --> 00:21:25.000 Speaker 3 And we also have a deficiency of folks that know how to leverage skilled trades as their point of employment. 00:21:25.000 --> 00:21:31.000 Speaker 3 So you begin braiding in these additional public sector resources, which are going to get spent anyway. 00:21:31.000 --> 00:21:45.000 Speaker 3 Why not focus it on a program that allows a pathway to home ownership for individuals that invested time, energy, and dollars into becoming more informed about how to participate in that process? 00:21:45.000 --> 00:21:55.000 Speaker 3 Because example, when I list a home for sale in the city of Detroit, I will oftentimes geofence social media advertising to about 1/2 mile radius around the house. 00:21:55.000 --> 00:22:01.000 Speaker 3 Most people move less than 10 miles to their new place of living. 00:22:01.000 --> 00:22:12.000 Speaker 3 So I want to be able to try to advertise and communicate directly to the neighbors that are adjacent to this house who may be interested in buying a home in their own neighborhood. 00:22:12.000 --> 00:22:20.000 Speaker 3 95% of those communications that come back to me ask me if there is a land contract or a rent to own option to purchase this property. 00:22:20.000 --> 00:22:34.000 Speaker 3 And as I sort of ask questions about why that would be their preferred method of acquisition, almost inevitably, the answer is, I can't get a mortgage because of list of reasons. 00:22:34.000 --> 00:22:43.000 Speaker 3 And those reasons are essentially that not that you can't get a mortgage, it's that you don't know how, because no one in your family has ever had one. 00:22:43.000 --> 00:22:50.000 Speaker 3 And the only means to acquisition that you're familiar with are these payday lending for home 00:22:50.000 --> 00:22:52.000 Speaker 3 purchases, i.e. 00:22:52.000 --> 00:23:06.000 Speaker 3 not friendly land contracts for the buyer or rent to own schemes, which are really leases that include a very long opportunity, like hitting the numbers. 00:23:06.000 --> 00:23:13.000 Speaker 3 If you play your daily four, you know, once every 25 years, you'll probably hit your numbers, right? 00:23:13.000 --> 00:23:21.000 Speaker 3 But in this case, you're playing that high stakes gambling opportunity with where you live. 00:23:21.000 --> 00:23:45.000 Speaker 3 So if these resources became acquainted, available, and socialized within larger communities that don't have access to these resources, then this is one way to expand that game board to allow for opportunity in areas where the public's already investing and you know you have a demand established for obtaining these opportunities. 00:23:45.000 --> 00:23:50.000 Speaker 3 And when you look at it and do just napkin math over a 30-year period, 00:23:50.000 --> 00:24:02.000 Speaker 3 $250 million that would be invested into building a factory that might yield 5,000 jobs, but will probably only yield 1,800 jobs is one way to go about doing it from an economic development perspective. 00:24:02.000 --> 00:24:14.000 Speaker 3 Or do you provide opportunities for home ownership to individuals that would be paying about $7,000 less in mortgage versus rent? 00:24:14.000 --> 00:24:28.000 Speaker 3 And over a 30 year period, putting $300 million into the pockets of your neighbors, rather than a multinational corporation that shares its wealth with its shareholders. 00:24:28.000 --> 00:24:30.000 Speaker 1 And i'm just into your point, not just. 00:24:30.000 --> 00:24:50.000 Speaker 1 People in Detroit, for example, not having a family member who's ever gotten a loan, but also building those social networks that are extremely important to understanding what opportunities you do have to increase your, you know, economic position as an individual or within your family in general. 00:24:50.000 --> 00:24:58.000 Speaker 3 Yeah, a quality education is directly correlated to a established and growable social network. 00:24:58.000 --> 00:25:13.000 Speaker 3 is I think an awful lot of people network their way into better jobs throughout their lives because of the access to social capital that is earned through primary, secondary, and post-secondary education. 00:25:13.000 --> 00:25:28.000 Speaker 3 Not having those access points denies you the ability to learn from your parents around the dining room table about what it takes to make the mortgage payment every month, or to be at a social event or a golf outing 00:25:28.000 --> 00:25:37.000 Speaker 3 or a whatever, where the person that's in front of you that can do the thing that everyone's looking for a resource for gets that opportunity. 00:25:37.000 --> 00:25:40.000 Speaker 3 It doesn't get posted to indeed.com. 00:25:40.000 --> 00:25:53.000 Speaker 3 So these are the types of pathways that ultimately build capital and democratize access to information and resources in communities, regardless of their color palette. 00:25:53.000 --> 00:25:56.000 Speaker 2 Yeah, you just don't know because you just don't know. 00:25:56.000 --> 00:25:57.000 Speaker 2 And you 00:25:57.000 --> 00:26:00.000 Speaker 2 really, because you just don't have access to that. 00:26:00.000 --> 00:26:05.000 Speaker 2 If you were that education puts you in a position, you're that first person to go to college, right? 00:26:05.000 --> 00:26:06.000 Speaker 2 And your family. 00:26:06.000 --> 00:26:09.000 Speaker 2 Now you're in a room with other individuals who might not be the first person to college. 00:26:09.000 --> 00:26:13.000 Speaker 2 And you're hearing from their experiences, you're like, hold on, what's going on? 00:26:13.000 --> 00:26:16.000 Speaker 2 Her lifestyle is this way and his lifestyle is that? 00:26:16.000 --> 00:26:23.000 Speaker 2 You glean information from that social, that social network that you have there in real life, and you bring that home like, 00:26:23.000 --> 00:26:24.000 Speaker 2 I think I'll be doing this wrong. 00:26:24.000 --> 00:26:25.000 Speaker 2 We could be doing it this way. 00:26:25.000 --> 00:26:27.000 Speaker 2 I heard this works over here. 00:26:27.000 --> 00:26:36.000 Speaker 2 And because you're now introduced and exposed new concepts that just weren't there for you at a point in time. 00:26:36.000 --> 00:26:37.000 Speaker 2 You know what I mean? 00:26:37.000 --> 00:26:40.000 Speaker 2 It's like, ah, that's how you do that. 00:26:40.000 --> 00:26:46.000 Speaker 2 You mean I could just refinance this and pull equity out of my car and pay for that instead of getting a whole other unsecured loan? 00:26:46.000 --> 00:26:47.000 Speaker 2 I could do, why? 00:26:47.000 --> 00:26:49.000 Speaker 2 That's never, that's not a thought to some folks. 00:26:49.000 --> 00:26:53.000 Speaker 2 And across the board, I can actually own a property. 00:26:53.000 --> 00:26:56.000 Speaker 2 Or my credit score, people have that fear of things. 00:26:56.000 --> 00:27:02.000 Speaker 2 And it's like that more knowledge helps alleviate the fear of the unknown. 00:27:02.000 --> 00:27:07.000 Speaker 2 And access to the social capital is definitely a part of that big time. 00:27:07.000 --> 00:27:09.000 Speaker 2 I just want to say that, Dave. 00:27:09.000 --> 00:27:13.000 Speaker 2 That's a brilliant thought and that should be noted for sure. 00:27:13.000 --> 00:27:21.000 Speaker 3 So democratization of access to capital is not just cash money. 00:27:21.000 --> 00:27:22.000 Speaker 3 It's goodwill. 00:27:22.000 --> 00:27:24.000 Speaker 3 It's social networks. 00:27:24.000 --> 00:27:32.000 Speaker 3 It's the connections that we have in society that allow us to navigate the ups and downs that everybody goes through. 00:27:32.000 --> 00:27:41.000 Speaker 3 So in going back to Tony's project, where he's looking at a community investment trust in Lansing, organically, we're looking at the same thing in Detroit. 00:27:41.000 --> 00:27:52.000 Speaker 3 So I'm working with a large group of community development organizations and others applying for a United Way of Southeastern Michigan grant, whereby we're looking at a neighborhood called East Chadson. 00:27:52.000 --> 00:27:57.000 Speaker 3 Condon, which is a small subset of the Chad Condon neighborhood in Detroit. 00:27:57.000 --> 00:28:07.000 Speaker 3 And there happens to be about 1,000 vacant lots or properties in a fairly small area of the city. 00:28:07.000 --> 00:28:10.000 Speaker 3 But the neighbors that are there 00:28:10.000 --> 00:28:17.000 Speaker 3 we all believe should benefit and have strong input into how their community becomes redeveloped. 00:28:17.000 --> 00:28:25.000 Speaker 3 Due to its proximity to some pretty major investments by multinational companies in the city. 00:28:25.000 --> 00:28:34.000 Speaker 3 Eventually, the investor class will see large tracts of land and want to put in market rate condominiums and single-family properties. 00:28:34.000 --> 00:28:41.000 Speaker 3 That is just the way the markets work when there's demand and opportunity and the pro forma shows that they can make some money. 00:28:41.000 --> 00:28:45.000 Speaker 3 As a real estate broker, this math is pretty straightforward. 00:28:45.000 --> 00:28:50.000 Speaker 3 But if the intervention occurs before all that gets gobbled up by interest groups, 00:28:50.000 --> 00:29:19.000 Speaker 3 and the community then becomes an owner in their own opportunity, then perhaps the community could literally benefit from those investments that turn into new housing and could also prioritize the purchase point of some of these properties so that it becomes accessible for neighbors rather than folks with a lot more resources that are probably coming from somewhere else. 00:29:19.000 --> 00:29:49.000 Speaker 3 So this model of looking at community investment trusts is one way to allow neighborhoods to a stronger right to self-determination, rather than having to show up in a reactionary fashion to a planning committee or a zoning board of appeals or whatever it is where lawyers show up on the side that wants to do something and normal humans show up with limited two-minute talking point opportunities. 00:29:49.000 --> 00:29:53.000 Speaker 3 opportunities to public bodies that are about to dramatically change their way of life. 00:29:53.000 --> 00:29:57.000 Speaker 2 Yeah, that's a lot right there, David. 00:29:57.000 --> 00:30:11.000 Speaker 2 You put that because that private corporation or entity is paying somebody a large amount of money full time to do this work while you are a community member, working, family, this, that. 00:30:11.000 --> 00:30:16.000 Speaker 2 And now you got to jump in here and say, whoa, whoa, what's going on at that point? 00:30:16.000 --> 00:30:20.000 Speaker 2 The ship has already left and now you're yelling like slow. 00:30:20.000 --> 00:30:22.000 Speaker 2 They might put the anchor back down. 00:30:22.000 --> 00:30:23.000 Speaker 2 They're not. 00:30:23.000 --> 00:30:24.000 Speaker 2 The winds at their sail. 00:30:24.000 --> 00:30:25.000 Speaker 2 It's time to keep going. 00:30:25.000 --> 00:30:28.000 Speaker 2 The best thing you can do is hope and pray. 00:30:28.000 --> 00:30:32.000 Speaker 2 Somebody might be conscious enough to say, let's think about that for a second. 00:30:32.000 --> 00:30:35.000 Speaker 2 But that's a low probability chance. 00:30:35.000 --> 00:30:42.000 Speaker 2 I want to say this when it comes to furthering the point. 00:30:42.000 --> 00:30:44.000 Speaker 2 It's all about individuals having that self, 00:30:44.000 --> 00:30:51.000 Speaker 2 determination in the community and seeing it grow into a way where they can live out. 00:30:51.000 --> 00:30:58.000 Speaker 2 They, as the current residents, can see a growth strategy where they are winning as well. 00:30:58.000 --> 00:31:06.000 Speaker 2 Not being displaced, not being put out or being bought out for something that's not really the value. 00:31:06.000 --> 00:31:10.000 Speaker 2 It's only being marked up dramatically once they're out of there. 00:31:10.000 --> 00:31:20.000 Speaker 2 It has to be looked at where people can, who are currently there, can grow and have thrive and see opportunities for themselves. 00:31:20.000 --> 00:31:24.000 Speaker 2 When we think of the community investment trust model in our area, it's mostly Lansing community. 00:31:24.000 --> 00:31:29.000 Speaker 2 We think of, there's a number of spots on South Lansing here. 00:31:29.000 --> 00:31:32.000 Speaker 2 Logan Square is a big commercial property. 00:31:32.000 --> 00:31:34.000 Speaker 2 It's... 00:31:34.000 --> 00:31:37.000 Speaker 2 If you have Google Maps, it's a giant concrete. 00:31:37.000 --> 00:31:41.000 Speaker 2 It's a massive, it's literally a massive mall, strip mall. 00:31:41.000 --> 00:31:52.000 Speaker 1 I was going to say, for listeners who maybe aren't pulling up a picture of this location, it's pretty much like a more leaning towards like a vacant strip mall at this point, correct? 00:31:52.000 --> 00:31:57.000 Speaker 1 With a large parking area that really surrounds the whole complex. 00:31:57.000 --> 00:31:58.000 Speaker 2 Big time. 00:31:58.000 --> 00:32:00.000 Speaker 2 I'd probably say if I were to say. 00:32:00.000 --> 00:32:18.000 Speaker 2 guesstimate how many, maybe 12 to 25 acres of concrete and spacage in my mind and how between the property itself and the asphalt concrete parking space. 00:32:18.000 --> 00:32:24.000 Speaker 2 So it's a large area and majority vacant. 00:32:24.000 --> 00:32:30.000 Speaker 2 But then as we mentioned earlier, this is part of somebody's portfolio management of other properties. 00:32:30.000 --> 00:32:35.000 Speaker 2 That person or company that lives here or that owns the property doesn't live here. 00:32:35.000 --> 00:32:38.000 Speaker 2 That's out of sight, out of mind. 00:32:38.000 --> 00:32:41.000 Speaker 2 If this is not performing, is it really hurting me that much? 00:32:41.000 --> 00:32:42.000 Speaker 2 Do I really put in effort to it? 00:32:42.000 --> 00:32:47.000 Speaker 2 I got other properties that are performing better, I'll deal with that when I deal with it. 00:32:47.000 --> 00:32:53.000 Speaker 2 Then while the local residents, the habits have to deal with it on a day-to-day basis. 00:32:53.000 --> 00:32:59.000 Speaker 2 I think it further goes to the point that we have to act in a way 00:32:59.000 --> 00:33:11.000 Speaker 2 that is probably new because it is once a generation, as David mentioned, you know, I was having maybe three to four times previously in the inception of United States where this much money in flux has come in at once. 00:33:11.000 --> 00:33:20.000 Speaker 2 I think the social climate as well as the political backing to do some projects like this are kind of still in the line. 00:33:20.000 --> 00:33:21.000 Speaker 2 They're kind of 00:33:21.000 --> 00:33:23.000 Speaker 2 going out of alignment now. 00:33:23.000 --> 00:33:32.000 Speaker 2 I think they're heightened probably mid-2020, I'd say early 2021, but this time is still now to engage in this space. 00:33:32.000 --> 00:33:34.000 Speaker 2 And it should always still be both. 00:33:34.000 --> 00:33:43.000 Speaker 2 We should still look to attract the big projects that, you know, but as well, equally has to be put in the effort of growing 00:33:43.000 --> 00:33:48.000 Speaker 2 the local communal infrastructure to create prosperity on a local level in that space. 00:33:48.000 --> 00:34:00.000 Speaker 3 So small businesses and small investors drive this national economy, despite the attention that the Fortune 500 or Fortune 100 or Fortune 50 receive. 00:34:00.000 --> 00:34:07.000 Speaker 3 They have disproportionate influence on the narrative of how 00:34:07.000 --> 00:34:09.000 Speaker 3 dollars are invested and spent. 00:34:09.000 --> 00:34:30.000 Speaker 3 So when we think about previous REI projects to the center, we've looked at community capital, we've looked at impact investing, we've looked at a whole range of democratization of investment vehicles, because about 97% of all of the investment dollars that are put in our retirement portfolios go straight to Wall Street. 00:34:30.000 --> 00:34:31.000 Speaker 3 right? 00:34:31.000 --> 00:34:47.000 Speaker 3 So you imagine peeling off 1, 2, or 3% of the endowment of Michigan State University or the University of Michigan or the Wayne State University or the Michigan Pension Trust Fund or the Natural Resources Trust Fund. 00:34:47.000 --> 00:34:55.000 Speaker 3 A 3% peel off of those billions of dollars would yield $1.1 billion in opportunity to invest in our communities. 00:34:55.000 --> 00:35:21.000 Speaker 3 So these are the types of opportunities for democratization that could occur because really normal human investors like us, I will presume that none of us have a net worth over $1,000,000 and that we would be amongst the investor class that goes to a retail investment advisor to tell us how to split up our portfolio and send it all to Wall Street. 00:35:21.000 --> 00:35:36.000 Speaker 3 if we had community capital options, whereby there were a secondary market to trade in the purchase and equity options within small business communities, 00:35:36.000 --> 00:35:40.000 Speaker 3 we would then begin to circulate our dollars more locally. 00:35:40.000 --> 00:35:48.000 Speaker 3 So using cooperatives as a vehicle for succession planning will work for a slice of the business community. 00:35:48.000 --> 00:36:04.000 Speaker 3 Another slice of the business community may be able to sell their shares to Jane and Joe and Dashandra and Jimmy within the community who want to invest in the local mechanic shop or the bakery or the software startup. 00:36:04.000 --> 00:36:06.000 Speaker 3 So making these options 00:36:06.000 --> 00:36:13.000 Speaker 3 available in the marketplace is really what the REI Center's research and their fellows have been focused on for a number of years. 00:36:13.000 --> 00:36:27.000 Speaker 3 And the projects that we're working on now, I think, begin to look at operationalizing solutions based on the more theoretical frameworks that have been, you know, written about and fill the shelves in our library. 00:36:27.000 --> 00:36:36.000 Speaker 3 So thinking about how to, you know, democratize access to investments, capital, real estate, business owners, 00:36:36.000 --> 00:36:44.000 Speaker 3 et cetera, is really where our projects are going, building on the progress that have been made by fellows previously. 00:36:44.000 --> 00:37:02.000 Speaker 1 I mean, as you previously mentioned in a previous comment and just now, traditionally, you know, community engagement has been a core feature of planning and not just planning and theory, but planning and practice as well, especially at the municipal level. 00:37:02.000 --> 00:37:05.000 Speaker 1 But how does 00:37:05.000 --> 00:37:26.000 Speaker 1 democratization or the process of democratization really go beyond the efforts towards community engagement that are traditionally seen in exercises like creating a master plan or community visioning exercises for creating a corridor improvement authority, for example. 00:37:26.000 --> 00:37:48.000 Speaker 1 what makes the actual outcome of these democratization processes different than simply asking for community input, for example, or not just community input, but actually having an exercise where they engage in creating the idea that will eventually be implemented? 00:37:48.000 --> 00:37:51.000 Speaker 3 So the proof will be in the long-term wealth accumulation. 00:37:51.000 --> 00:38:07.000 Speaker 3 So ancestors that looked like me got subsidized to leave Detroit and other urban areas to move into freshly built suburban homes and communities that ancestors that looked like Tony didn't have an opportunity to buy. 00:38:07.000 --> 00:38:13.000 Speaker 3 You mentioned that earlier, simple fact, it was called redlining, steering, blockbusting. 00:38:13.000 --> 00:38:28.000 Speaker 3 There's all kinds of terms that were tried and true from the federal government, the real estate community, and the lending community that separated resources in a apartheid light. 00:38:28.000 --> 00:38:33.000 Speaker 3 implementation in the Detroit region, the Lansing region, and really urban communities around the country. 00:38:33.000 --> 00:38:35.000 Speaker 3 Doesn't really drive a stake into it. 00:38:35.000 --> 00:38:42.000 Speaker 3 When the interstate highway systems were built, almost all those highways got built right through black and brown communities. 00:38:42.000 --> 00:38:43.000 Speaker 3 So more displacement. 00:38:43.000 --> 00:38:58.000 Speaker 3 The landowners of those communities were folks that were Caucasian, and they benefited from the sale of the property to the government or got opportunities to build new developments for the people that were displaced, who also didn't have owners. 00:38:58.000 --> 00:38:58.000 Speaker 3 ownership there. 00:38:58.000 --> 00:39:25.000 Speaker 3 So when we think about the democratization, when the dollars start circulating locally and normal humans who are assumed not to be a part of the wealth building conversation are now included and start to earn incremental improvements over time, then the chart for Caucasians after World War II and intergenerational wealth transfers goes slightly upwards. 00:39:25.000 --> 00:39:37.000 Speaker 3 and dips a couple times through recessions and then recovers and keeps going up, where everybody else stays at pretty low and then falls off and then maybe recovers a little bit, but keeps going downward. 00:39:37.000 --> 00:39:54.000 Speaker 3 So when those long-term trends start shifting because folks are making improvements in their lives off of the access to opportunity, capital, real estate, business ownership, et cetera, then we'll know we'll be successful. 00:39:54.000 --> 00:40:09.000 Speaker 3 So just like anything, if it's in the budget and you're measuring the outcomes that you want to see in your budget, then we need to be measuring outcomes to benefit communities that have traditionally been locked out of opportunity. 00:40:09.000 --> 00:40:15.000 Speaker 2 Yeah, I think that's a great question too, Emma, and great answer there, David. 00:40:15.000 --> 00:40:20.000 Speaker 2 You're right, community engagement happens often, right? 00:40:20.000 --> 00:40:23.000 Speaker 2 Let's hear from the community. 00:40:23.000 --> 00:40:26.000 Speaker 2 That in itself, and what does that tell us? 00:40:26.000 --> 00:40:30.000 Speaker 2 That we're only hearing, doesn't mean we're going to have to listen. 00:40:30.000 --> 00:40:37.000 Speaker 2 We're going to perceive, hear, get some type of understanding maybe. 00:40:37.000 --> 00:40:50.000 Speaker 1 It's more like maybe a facially kind of beneficial type of program in terms of community engagement, but the actual outcome. 00:40:50.000 --> 00:40:51.000 Speaker 1 Yeah. 00:40:51.000 --> 00:40:51.000 Speaker 1 It's truly not. 00:40:51.000 --> 00:40:54.000 Speaker 2 It should be community-based decision-making. 00:40:54.000 --> 00:40:56.000 Speaker 2 That's where we're at. 00:40:56.000 --> 00:40:57.000 Speaker 2 Not community engagement. 00:40:57.000 --> 00:41:00.000 Speaker 2 Yeah, we're going to engage them. 00:41:00.000 --> 00:41:02.000 Speaker 2 If I play with my kid, I'm engaged with my kid. 00:41:02.000 --> 00:41:04.000 Speaker 2 It doesn't mean he's going to impact what I decide what's been there that night. 00:41:04.000 --> 00:41:06.000 Speaker 2 I'm engaging with what we're going to do. 00:41:06.000 --> 00:41:09.000 Speaker 2 That's a way of engagement. 00:41:09.000 --> 00:41:12.000 Speaker 2 But I'm still going to pick the many you out and make this. 00:41:12.000 --> 00:41:13.000 Speaker 2 That's why I feel like a lot happens here. 00:41:13.000 --> 00:41:15.000 Speaker 2 We'll engage them. 00:41:15.000 --> 00:41:16.000 Speaker 2 Your voice is heard. 00:41:16.000 --> 00:41:23.000 Speaker 2 You know, we're talking to you, but all right, now it's time for the big kids patching their head and I want to make the call. 00:41:23.000 --> 00:41:27.000 Speaker 3 Choose from the three options that we've already predetermined are palatable for us. 00:41:27.000 --> 00:41:29.000 Speaker 2 Right. 00:41:29.000 --> 00:41:31.000 Speaker 3 And then now you've had your input. 00:41:31.000 --> 00:41:36.000 Speaker 3 Now, do we want to go back to direct democracy and have votes on every single thing? 00:41:36.000 --> 00:41:44.000 Speaker 3 Now, it's not practical or reasonable, but I think we can look at legal and commercial vehicles 00:41:44.000 --> 00:41:54.000 Speaker 3 to be inclusive of areas that are seeking redevelopment, especially if those communities have traditionally not been at the table for opportunity. 00:41:54.000 --> 00:41:55.000 Speaker 2 Yeah. 00:41:55.000 --> 00:42:06.000 Speaker 2 There's so many ways, and it's all about being, you have to open it up to possibilities, right? 00:42:06.000 --> 00:42:09.000 Speaker 2 To try something and see where it goes. 00:42:09.000 --> 00:42:13.000 Speaker 2 That is the human condition. 00:42:13.000 --> 00:42:14.000 Speaker 2 Humans create a lot more things. 00:42:14.000 --> 00:42:21.000 Speaker 2 All the factories and the pollutants we're trying to figure out now to deal with, we create more things and we think of the solutions after it affects us. 00:42:21.000 --> 00:42:23.000 Speaker 2 Oh, now we've got to get a solution to it. 00:42:23.000 --> 00:42:24.000 Speaker 2 Nobody thinks so. 00:42:24.000 --> 00:42:37.000 Speaker 2 I feel like from that vantage point, if we are talking about real community-led decision-making or incorporated thoughts, let's break that down. 00:42:37.000 --> 00:42:40.000 Speaker 2 All right, here is our main, 00:42:40.000 --> 00:42:42.000 Speaker 2 Here are our remaining officials. 00:42:42.000 --> 00:42:42.000 Speaker 2 That's one thing. 00:42:42.000 --> 00:42:44.000 Speaker 2 Here are the project leads. 00:42:44.000 --> 00:42:47.000 Speaker 2 Here are these organizations. 00:42:47.000 --> 00:42:55.000 Speaker 2 Who from this community, from this zip code, this neighborhood, who's being heard from that specifically? 00:42:55.000 --> 00:42:59.000 Speaker 2 Somebody in that realm, right? 00:42:59.000 --> 00:43:05.000 Speaker 2 If there's an actual who's adjacent, who used to live there, because that's the thing. 00:43:05.000 --> 00:43:06.000 Speaker 2 That's the past you. 00:43:06.000 --> 00:43:09.000 Speaker 2 The current you is not there. 00:43:09.000 --> 00:43:14.000 Speaker 2 Who's currently in that space right now that can be that voice? 00:43:14.000 --> 00:43:29.000 Speaker 2 Then not just that person, but a number of folks, which that person has a position to really push change this way or that way, where the entire group must understand and see what's coming from. 00:43:29.000 --> 00:43:34.000 Speaker 2 That's more aligned to actual decision-making than just the engagement. 00:43:34.000 --> 00:43:36.000 Speaker 2 Do you think this is working well? 00:43:36.000 --> 00:43:37.000 Speaker 2 Yeah. 00:43:37.000 --> 00:43:41.000 Speaker 2 Because I get it, we can't go everybody has a vote in that space. 00:43:41.000 --> 00:43:44.000 Speaker 2 Maybe in the future we can, technology might take us to a place like that. 00:43:44.000 --> 00:43:57.000 Speaker 3 If we had instant runoff voting to solve for the duopoly system of tribal warfare that manages our politics, then you might be able to get to that point. 00:43:57.000 --> 00:43:58.000 Speaker 2 But that's the fact though. 00:43:58.000 --> 00:44:08.000 Speaker 2 Those are, I feel like as things progress, we have to be progressive within our tools, our operations to meet the need as community changes. 00:44:08.000 --> 00:44:20.000 Speaker 2 And as you said, in the Monopoly Board, how do we expand and let other people that have not had entry and access have ability to catch up and play the current board game and the current status as it is right now? 00:44:20.000 --> 00:44:25.000 Speaker 1 So I think one of the things we haven't really talked about though in this space is 00:44:25.000 --> 00:44:32.000 Speaker 1 how politics are involved in this process now we're all pretty fairly aware that. 00:44:32.000 --> 00:44:44.000 Speaker 1 Things have to be politically they seem like a benefit to the political body which governs either the municipality or like smaller unit of government, like the. 00:44:44.000 --> 00:44:48.000 Speaker 1 For example, a corridor improvement authority, just that's the top of mind. 00:44:48.000 --> 00:45:03.000 Speaker 1 But there is always some kind of governing body over the larger decision making processes, like you previously talked about, you know, how do we get people in the door in order to not only engage with them, but to actually include them in that process? 00:45:03.000 --> 00:45:10.000 Speaker 1 So how, you know, do we move beyond truly, you know, 00:45:10.000 --> 00:45:32.000 Speaker 1 inviting people to make a public comment for two minutes on an issue like this, but truly involving them and listening to them, not just, or not just listening, I should say, but, you know, mobilizing on their feedback in terms of what they want, because that is definitely something that has been a political issue. 00:45:32.000 --> 00:45:47.000 Speaker 1 and it will probably continue to be a political issue, but there's got to be some kind of inroad to breaking down that barrier in politicians that don't really, truly want to incorporate community members input in their, you know, decisions. 00:45:47.000 --> 00:45:49.000 Speaker 2 I'm gonna jump in with this one, David. 00:45:49.000 --> 00:45:51.000 Speaker 2 This is one idea here. 00:45:51.000 --> 00:45:52.000 Speaker 2 It kind of is the politics. 00:45:52.000 --> 00:45:58.000 Speaker 2 There's a part there, but I also think that, you know, somebody is elected. 00:45:58.000 --> 00:46:01.000 Speaker 2 You know, they make X promises, X, Y, and Z. 00:46:01.000 --> 00:46:04.000 Speaker 2 That's I hear that. 00:46:04.000 --> 00:46:18.000 Speaker 2 I think it's on the community needs to create its own standard of what that development looks like in their space. 00:46:18.000 --> 00:46:24.000 Speaker 2 And the elected official should adhere to what that standard has already been set. 00:46:24.000 --> 00:46:26.000 Speaker 2 And this is this is an example. 00:46:26.000 --> 00:46:28.000 Speaker 2 This is a complete 00:46:28.000 --> 00:46:28.000 Speaker 2 Novel ideas. 00:46:28.000 --> 00:46:29.000 Speaker 2 Still got this right now. 00:46:29.000 --> 00:46:33.000 Speaker 2 I'm not sure if there could be existence in other places, but here we go. 00:46:33.000 --> 00:46:37.000 Speaker 2 Imagine a community, let's say North Lansing. 00:46:37.000 --> 00:46:39.000 Speaker 2 That's in South Lansing, we'll say North Lansing. 00:46:39.000 --> 00:46:55.000 Speaker 2 North Lansing, the communal round table ahead of time says, we want, if we have a project that's coming in for this dollar amount and incentives are being looked at, this project, 00:46:55.000 --> 00:47:03.000 Speaker 2 In order for it to be here, we need these three things to be prioritized as a communal investment in this space. 00:47:03.000 --> 00:47:14.000 Speaker 2 Then, whoever elected official is, has the mandate or standard that that geographic needs when it comes to dealing with a project. 00:47:14.000 --> 00:47:22.000 Speaker 2 The EDO does, the planning, the chamber, whoever is involved, these are our standards of this community here. 00:47:22.000 --> 00:47:30.000 Speaker 2 when you say in that grant, then that opens opportunity to say, I can't have this project go through without these things being met. 00:47:30.000 --> 00:47:37.000 Speaker 2 And then the project, the corporation or the project says, well, I'm not sure about that. 00:47:37.000 --> 00:47:40.000 Speaker 2 Then it allows for negotiation. 00:47:40.000 --> 00:47:49.000 Speaker 2 And the community can then have a real say on how much the community wants or values those standards versus having this elected official who 00:47:49.000 --> 00:48:16.000 Speaker 2 really know because you're you most especially have a large swath of area they're overseeing each and that's a lot of different neighborhoods have different desires and needs at once and really have you know that localized level this community needs this and if you want this to happen here or XYD this project to take place we need to either meet these as is or I don't 00:48:16.000 --> 00:48:24.000 Speaker 2 I need to now involve that community and say, hey, they won't do this project, but can't do with these things here. 00:48:24.000 --> 00:48:28.000 Speaker 2 Then the community can determine if they want to negotiate or not to center degree. 00:48:28.000 --> 00:48:38.000 Speaker 3 If I solve for lowest common denominator for the question, which is essentially the politics that overlay this situation, I see three buckets. 00:48:38.000 --> 00:48:46.000 Speaker 3 I see the political class, I see policy and local implementation, and then I see vehicles. 00:48:46.000 --> 00:48:48.000 Speaker 3 that interact with the first two. 00:48:48.000 --> 00:49:01.000 Speaker 3 So from the political side, I'm not aware of any corporation or entity in the state of Michigan that has a $60 billion budget where you can have no more than four years of experience to be the key decision maker. 00:49:01.000 --> 00:49:04.000 Speaker 3 That is the Michigan House of Representatives. 00:49:04.000 --> 00:49:16.000 Speaker 3 And the Michigan State Senate is similarly inclined with very short time span, very limited experience, and very limited depth into 00:49:16.000 --> 00:49:17.000 Speaker 3 any policy areas. 00:49:17.000 --> 00:49:27.000 Speaker 3 So that bucket can be changed through the state constitution, through direct action, and then organic legislative changes. 00:49:27.000 --> 00:49:38.000 Speaker 3 And the policy bucket in the middle is the policies that municipalities and local entities or quasi-governmental organizations interact with to do business. 00:49:38.000 --> 00:49:48.000 Speaker 3 So the EDO that Tony mentioned is economic development organization, and there are EDOs all across the state with different geographies and focus areas. 00:49:48.000 --> 00:49:57.000 Speaker 3 You have local clerks and municipal structures or townships or counties, and they have zoning ordinances 00:49:57.000 --> 00:50:05.000 Speaker 3 and all kinds of different things that folks need to adhere to in order to be able to do development. 00:50:05.000 --> 00:50:11.000 Speaker 3 So that would be the two minutes of speaking time that is reactionary to something that's already been proposed. 00:50:11.000 --> 00:50:15.000 Speaker 3 The third piece is the vehicle by which you engage with those things. 00:50:15.000 --> 00:50:19.000 Speaker 3 So a community investment trust or co-op 00:50:19.000 --> 00:50:34.000 Speaker 3 or a corporation or a nonprofit organization are all legal vehicles by which you can do real estate development or sell widgets or whatever it is that you're passionate about and do to make resources. 00:50:34.000 --> 00:50:38.000 Speaker 3 So when you have a community investment trust, 00:50:38.000 --> 00:50:43.000 Speaker 3 that becomes the land owner of a particular area. 00:50:43.000 --> 00:50:49.000 Speaker 3 And the trustees of that trust happen to be the neighbors that live within the community. 00:50:49.000 --> 00:50:58.000 Speaker 3 Now they are organized under an umbrella that allows them to engage differently with the policy folks and the political folks. 00:50:58.000 --> 00:50:58.000 Speaker 3 right? 00:50:58.000 --> 00:51:08.000 Speaker 3 So they're engaging in a similar way as a for-profit corporation or even a non-profit corporation would engage with those structures. 00:51:08.000 --> 00:51:27.000 Speaker 3 So whether it's a co-op or a trust or a non-profit entity, banding together these resources allows the opportunity to have conversations and make investments at a different scale than most 00:51:27.000 --> 00:51:32.000 Speaker 3 people can do as individuals with limited time, resources, and expertise. 00:51:32.000 --> 00:51:48.000 Speaker 3 So if we want to fix any one of the three buckets or change them over time, as the conversation is alluded to, then it's really upon the population to band together to say, these are the things that we want to see as outcomes from these investments. 00:51:48.000 --> 00:51:54.000 Speaker 3 And do you band together in a vehicle like a trust or a corporation? 00:51:54.000 --> 00:52:03.000 Speaker 3 Or do you band together behind one or more political candidates that are willing to carry that water to the firing squad that you have in Lansing? 00:52:03.000 --> 00:52:12.000 Speaker 3 Or do you organize locally and try to influence your municipal calendar and schedule and priorities? 00:52:12.000 --> 00:52:13.000 Speaker 3 Ultimately, 00:52:13.000 --> 00:52:25.000 Speaker 3 In the state of Michigan, the legislature over, especially the last 30 years, has hamstrung individual communities in their ability to band together in different ways as has happened in other states. 00:52:25.000 --> 00:52:32.000 Speaker 3 So you can't do things like rent control in cities. 00:52:32.000 --> 00:52:43.000 Speaker 3 You can't have municipally owned broadband systems because the Michigan Telecommunications Act was amended to say that municipalities can't participate unless they jump through all these hoops 00:52:43.000 --> 00:52:44.000 Speaker 3 first. 00:52:44.000 --> 00:52:59.000 Speaker 3 So there's all kinds of barriers to collective engagement that have been sort of chopped off at the knees by forward-thinking lobbyists that have influenced amateurs that run our state legislature. 00:52:59.000 --> 00:53:06.000 Speaker 3 So if we want to organize as communities, trust vehicles like Tony is working on, 00:53:06.000 --> 00:53:19.000 Speaker 3 or nonprofit corporations, or even traditional corporations are ways that neighbors can band together to influence and survive within the frameworks that we have created for ourselves. 00:53:19.000 --> 00:53:36.000 Speaker 1 I mean, one of the things you just briefly touched upon was the fact that in politics, a lot of the times these private entities or these private businesses have more say due to the fact that they have money, right? 00:53:36.000 --> 00:53:48.000 Speaker 1 businesses, as you know, Citizens United decision in 2010 ruled, you know, have the ability to engage in political elections. 00:53:48.000 --> 00:53:57.000 Speaker 1 Okay, so now we have people competing against businesses or corporate incentives, basically in politics. 00:53:57.000 --> 00:53:59.000 Speaker 1 So, 00:53:59.000 --> 00:54:06.000 Speaker 1 I think that what you're saying is wonderful, but how do people really, truly overcome that barrier? 00:54:06.000 --> 00:54:27.000 Speaker 1 I think, relying on EDOs as entities maybe, or not EDOs, I should say, but economic development entities outside of specific municipal government, like LEAP, for example, is not specifically tied to the city of Lansing, but serves in a similar capacity to the economic development, you know, 00:54:27.000 --> 00:54:30.000 Speaker 1 department within the city government. 00:54:30.000 --> 00:54:49.000 Speaker 1 Like how do those interactions with other types of organizations that are not specifically tied to a local entity or maybe even a regional entity get mobilized in terms of trying to have that collective support and mobilizing these things forward, right? 00:54:49.000 --> 00:54:51.000 Speaker 2 Yeah, that's a great question. 00:54:51.000 --> 00:54:52.000 Speaker 2 I think 00:54:52.000 --> 00:54:58.000 Speaker 2 I've seen a number of grassroot efforts, and probably you guys too, David, in this space. 00:54:58.000 --> 00:55:18.000 Speaker 2 There's one group, community education, economic development group, the seed that goes by the kind of the house are they meet in the Lobby Square Plaza on a monthly basis, in fact, weekly for different type of education workshops when it comes to economic and community education development in that space. 00:55:18.000 --> 00:55:44.000 Speaker 2 local grassroots group, not a formed organization yet in that space, but how we pivot them to be that and give them some control, authority, thought process, leadership on that community in that space, where then that group, whether it's not formed yet or formed, can interact with Philip directly in the way or at least have a direct contact or in that space. 00:55:44.000 --> 00:55:54.000 Speaker 2 as well as with the city or any other major partner when it comes to economic or business development in those spaces. 00:55:54.000 --> 00:56:07.000 Speaker 2 There comes both the formation on the local level, but then we have to create, as organizations, the input so they can incorporate them into us. 00:56:07.000 --> 00:56:13.000 Speaker 2 They are saying, Hey, we are here, and how can I incorporate that to my structure? 00:56:13.000 --> 00:56:18.000 Speaker 2 that once that's really incorporated, we value that membership. 00:56:18.000 --> 00:56:21.000 Speaker 2 They're not just a thing out there, they're a part of it now. 00:56:21.000 --> 00:56:26.000 Speaker 2 Whether that's having a seat at the board, there has to be some directive. 00:56:26.000 --> 00:56:31.000 Speaker 2 Those are just some ways, but it's a larger conversation we're getting at, and I definitely understand that. 00:56:31.000 --> 00:56:43.000 Speaker 1 I guess I was just trying to get at how that networking opportunity is part of building the social capital that we would previously talked about, because a lot of the things we're discussing have systemic or institutional 00:56:43.000 --> 00:56:55.000 Speaker 1 barriers involved in them, which is prominent in any discussion about equity building or building resilience and underserved communities. 00:56:55.000 --> 00:57:21.000 Speaker 1 But I guess that comment was really just to show that although you can mobilize as a grassroots organization or as a neighborhood association, building that social capital with other entities that are not just the local government, but other nonprofits, for example, is another inroads to really mobilizing yourself 00:57:21.000 --> 00:57:26.000 Speaker 1 So discussion as old as the Republic. 00:57:26.000 --> 00:57:27.000 Speaker 1 Right. 00:57:27.000 --> 00:57:33.000 Speaker 3 So how do you organize, community organizing is what you're really getting to. 00:57:33.000 --> 00:57:41.000 Speaker 3 And how do you organize resources, knowledge, expertise, and assets to be able to move the needle on a topic? 00:57:41.000 --> 00:57:59.000 Speaker 3 And the third bucket that I was talking about that Tony's working on, the community investment trust is one way to organize under an entity that can own assets and have a soapbox, a collective soapbox to reach out. 00:57:59.000 --> 00:58:09.000 Speaker 3 Because if this community in Lansing or in Detroit or in Flint or Benton Harbor or Paw Paw or wherever it is, 00:58:09.000 --> 00:58:30.000 Speaker 3 those community members choose to get together and they're working with a common agenda and voice, then that's a really powerful way to gain the attention and provide leadership pathways to have the system become slightly more responsive to the positions that you hold. 00:58:30.000 --> 00:58:53.000 Speaker 3 Ultimately, if the systems that we have built and maintained through state law and constitutional constraints that we have in place are too cumbersome, then perhaps it's time to consider reestablishing the way we choose to do business with each other as Michiganians. 00:58:53.000 --> 00:59:00.000 Speaker 3 So in 2026, there'll be question on everyone's ballot, would you like to hold a constitutional convention? 00:59:00.000 --> 00:59:16.000 Speaker 3 So a state constitution asks voters every 16 years if you'd like to hold a constitutional convention to reestablish the ways that we all choose to work together under our system of government in this state. 00:59:16.000 --> 00:59:34.000 Speaker 3 And I think reasonable arguments can be made that now is actually a pretty good time to consider holding a constitutional convention and determining how we all want to live together in this civil society in the 21st century moving forward. 00:59:34.000 --> 00:59:38.000 Speaker 3 Because we haven't had that sort of hard 00:59:38.000 --> 00:59:42.000 Speaker 3 grown-up conversation since the early 1960s. 00:59:42.000 --> 00:59:50.000 Speaker 3 And I dare say that life has changed a wee bit since the early 1960s. 00:59:50.000 --> 01:00:00.000 Speaker 3 And perhaps we as a society are actually ready to become our better selves, and we should have governing documents that reflect that. 01:00:00.000 --> 01:00:08.000 Speaker 3 So all of these things are big, and yes, they will take time, effort, and energy, 01:00:08.000 --> 01:00:12.000 Speaker 3 But I think that the commons are worth that time and investment. 01:00:12.000 --> 01:00:35.000 Speaker 3 And if we start with small projects like trying to figure out how to get 1,500 homes in the city of Detroit that are being invested in by the city into the hands of normal humans rather than investors, or you look at 25 acres of concrete jungle in Lansing that could be transformed into a beautiful place for residents 01:00:35.000 --> 01:00:37.000 Speaker 3 where residents actually benefit. 01:00:37.000 --> 01:00:41.000 Speaker 3 These are both sort of small ways to take those steps. 01:00:41.000 --> 01:00:45.000 Speaker 3 The macro ways need to be thought about as well. 01:00:45.000 --> 01:00:55.000 Speaker 3 And we desperately need leaders to step up and think about re-establishing the rules of engagement for the 21st century. 01:00:55.000 --> 01:01:00.000 Speaker 1 That was a wonderful way to really, truly close off the 01:01:00.000 --> 01:01:15.000 Speaker 1 Larger conversation we're having not just about democratization at this point, but about really truly kind of rethinking the systems by which we operate as a state, you know, and as a nation so. 01:01:15.000 --> 01:01:20.000 Speaker 1 there's definitely a lot to digest in what we just talked about but. 01:01:20.000 --> 01:01:25.000 Speaker 1 I think that this is a good place for us to kind of tie off what we've talked about. 01:01:25.000 --> 01:01:35.000 Speaker 1 We've gone really in a full range of things from community engagement to, you know, financial resilience itself and everything in between. 01:01:35.000 --> 01:01:44.000 Speaker 1 And behalf, on behalf of the CCEBA office, I should say, I would like to personally thank both of you for joining me today and having this conversation. 01:01:44.000 --> 01:01:51.000 Speaker 1 I think talking about things that are uncomfortable is one of the ways that we can make 01:01:51.000 --> 01:01:54.000 Speaker 1 important conversations, less taboo. 01:01:54.000 --> 01:02:11.000 Speaker 1 And also break down that wall and providing more accessible language to really discuss these items and not just, having a theoretical perspective put forth, but, one that can be in practice and built upon too. 01:02:11.000 --> 01:02:19.000 Speaker 1 So, again, on behalf of the center, we truly look forward to you guys completing your research and presenting. 01:02:19.000 --> 01:02:23.000 Speaker 1 what you find at the REI Summit this summer. 01:02:23.000 --> 01:02:30.000 Speaker 1 And with that, we'll see you next time with another REI Innovation Fellow or Project Leader. 01:02:30.000 --> 01:02:30.000 Speaker 1 So thank you. 01:02:30.000 --> 01:02:31.000 Speaker 1 Cheers. 01:02:31.000 --> 01:02:36.000 Speaker 2 Thank you.